Food Allergy Support

Discussion Boards => Main Discussion Board => Topic started by: ajasfolks2 on April 17, 2012, 08:32:00 PM

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Title: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: ajasfolks2 on April 17, 2012, 08:32:00 PM
The gist of the EPIPEN ad is that you can eat anything and be "safe" so long as you have Epi along.

Trying to get postable video for here.

This is FB link, for those on FB

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=391129507584125

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 17, 2012, 10:21:30 PM
Transcript of this ad by DEY aired nationally:

Mom: Excited for Max's birthday party? Should be pretty awesome...
Son: Yeah!
Mom: Even with your peanut allergy and a cake made with who-knows-what. Because we're prepared, right, Jake?
Son: Yep!
Mom: With EpiPen.

Do you think this sends the right message? If not, let's lean on DEY to pull the ad!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 17, 2012, 10:22:43 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=391129507584125

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 17, 2012, 10:23:45 PM
The following is from Arizona Food Allergy Alliance

AFAA Advocacy Update: MYLAN EXECUTIVE SENT EMAIL TO AFAA PRESIDENT/FOUNDER SUBJECT: Mylan Specialty Response to Your Facebook Posts. Attention food allergy community .... MYLAN STANDS BY THEIR CURRENT AD 100%. They fact reference FAAN in their email. Their main reasoning is that "Avoidance of allergens that cause anaphylaxis is extremely important, but despite best intentions, studies have shown that triggers aren’t always obvious and unintended exposure to allergens can happen, putting lives at risk.", and that they are "This advertising campaign is intended to remind parents about the importance of always carrying an epinephrine auto-injector as a way to complement all their efforts to protect their children who have life-threatening allergies. The campaign is one of many educational initiatives, supported by Mylan Specialty, designed to increase understanding about how to manage life-threatening allergies (including how to minimize exposure to allergens)."

Is this what you and the general public are getting from their ad? Do you feel they are "committed to raising anaphylaxis awareness and preparedness among people directly affected by life-threatening allergies, including parents, caregivers, healthcare professionals, as well as the general public"?

If not, CARRY ON. Contact Dey/Mylan/Epi-Pen and the FDA through the information below. This ad is not appropriate for public consumption and could cost someone their life.

###

Dey Pharma Corporate:
Corporate:

Dey Pharma, L.P.
110 Allen Road
4th Floor
Basking Ridge, NJ 07920
(908) 542-1999 (Main Phone)
(908) 542-2594 (Fax Number)

AKA

Mylan
Corporate:
Mylan
1500 Corporate Drive
Canonsburg, PA 15317
Tel: 724.514.1800
www.mylan.com

Commercially known as "Epi-Pen" brand
Corporate:

Dey Pharma, L.P.
110 Allen Road
4th Floor
Basking Ridge, NJ 07920
(908) 542-1999 (Main Phone)
(908) 542-2594 (Fax Number)

Customer Relations:

Dey Pharma, L.P.
(800) 395-3376 (Main Phone)
(304) 554-4713 (Fax Number)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 17, 2012, 10:27:18 PM
Contact info for Khary Burke,
Brand Product Manager, EpiPen® Auto-Injector
Dey Pharma, L.P. (a subsidiary of Mylan Inc)

http://www.indeed.com/r/794539d4713864c0

http://www.linkedin.com/in/kharyburke

https://www.facebook.com/khary.burke
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Macabre on April 17, 2012, 10:48:49 PM
Wow. Speechless.

Well then, I should head to Red Lobster tomorrow for lunch and just down some fried shrimp.



Not.


Ugh.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 18, 2012, 06:19:26 AM
O.  M.  G.   :o

I had to see it to believe it myself. 

Guess I know what I'll be doing as soon as I get home from work today - firing off a couple of letters.  :rant:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 07:17:37 AM
Wow!  this could really complicate the advocacy efforts we've done.  Think about how we manage what our children eat at school, parties, playdates etc.  how many times has someone pushed us saying "its safe!"  Now this ad makes it seem like Epi pen to the rescue, see just have your epi pen and it will be fine!

Or how many people are indifferent and say well, he has that pen thingy, so what's the problem. 

How can FAAN support this ad?  Terrible!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: LinksEtc on April 18, 2012, 07:52:03 AM
I hope they pull this ad -- a very bad message to be sending.


 :paddle:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 07:59:14 AM
what does this say to a caregiver of a child with allergies?  oh, its not that big of a deal, I have his/her epi pen. 
how about an ad that says yeah for the birthday party!  I have your "safe" treats packed, but we need to still be sure we have your epi pen ! 

Or how about Epi Pen.  Don't leave home without it.  (isn't that an amex ad LOL) 

it says a cake made with who knows what.  (insinuating that he'll be eating it? )
That is not how most parents manage their kid's allergies and that is not the right message to send. 
even if they added  "a cake made with who knows what" even though you have your own treat, you still need to always have your epi pen available.

Wonder if the people who wrote these ads have ANY clue about managing food allergies? 

Once again, FAAN is the "go to" on approving messages that most of the Allergy community doesn't agree with.  I'm so sick of FAAN having all this clout when 99% of the time, I do not agree with their message/approvals
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 18, 2012, 09:01:44 AM
Is this blatant enough for a false advertising lawsuit?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: momma2boys on April 18, 2012, 09:05:53 AM
So if you take two, you can have ice cream with your cake?   ~)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: becca on April 18, 2012, 09:21:26 AM
I suspect, since it is a marketing campaign, they are targeting people who might need epipens, but do not bother.  They will not be selling any more epipens to people like us here.  We already buy as many as we can.  So, if you are the person who thinks, I won't ever need that, and Iknow a few, maybe they are trying to reach those folks.  Make them recinsider.  "Hmmm, maybe I shoud get one." 

Education?  Right.  It is all about money and trying to sell more epipens, right? 

Really misleading ad for the general public to see. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: AllergyMum on April 18, 2012, 09:27:39 AM
Not really surprising.  When they made the new epi's so HUGE regardless of so many complaints, the company showed our community that they really don't care or understand food allergies.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 10:23:18 AM
that's true with the redesign.  I wonder if they even did any surveys to the allergic community to find out how they could improve the design. 
I switched to twin ject after that. 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 18, 2012, 10:24:34 AM
They did do surveys.

I think the redesign made them more popular with school staff.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 10:26:23 AM
oh, I wasnt sure if they did or not.  More popular with school because of the non exposed needle etc?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: maeve on April 18, 2012, 10:34:54 AM
oh, I wasnt sure if they did or not.  More popular with school because of the non exposed needle etc?


Most likely.  And despite the lack of exposed needle, my school system still must have the staff put on gloves when administering the EpiPen judging by the gloves I found in the bag with her EpiPen when I retrieved them at the end of the school year last year.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 18, 2012, 10:41:45 AM
Wow. Speechless.

Well then, I should head to Red Lobster tomorrow for lunch and just down some fried shrimp.



Not.


Ugh.


Slack jaw...


Uhhhhhhh......





yeah.  What she said. 

GGA.  With friends like this, who needs the PTA-Cupcake-a-palooza-posse?   :disappointed:


Look, ma-- I've got my 'get-out-of-death-free' card!  I'll be FINE!


Great.  Dey should tell it to a few parents whose kids DID carry their damned epinephrine injectors, attempted to use them properly... and died ANYWAY. 

 :tongue:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: maeve on April 18, 2012, 10:45:18 AM
I sent DH the link to this thread and here's what he wrote me back:

Quote
"Wow, honey, I'm 58 years old, 90 pounds overweight, and have a history of heart problems. Are you sure I should run this marathon?"

"Don't be silly, dear. With the new MedAssist Portable Defibrillator, we'll be prepared!"

I do love his sense of humor.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: AdminCM on April 18, 2012, 10:59:56 AM
<snort>

Exactly.  Why in the sweet and crunchy name of all that is cross-contaminated would the makers of Epipen (of all people) turn allergy safety into a ZERO SUM GAME??

Geeeeeeeeez Louise...

say it with me everyone:

There is NO WAY TO BE CAREFUL ENOUGH not to carry emergency medications.  Ever.  Yes?  good.


Oh-- AND*

There is NO AMOUNT OF MEDICATION that makes deliberate exposure a GOOD IDEA outside of a clinical setting.



*Note that this is not and/or.  It's AND.   I thought this latter point was pretty basic, but Mylan seems to have some trouble with the second half of things, here.

I'm posting this as Admin because frankly, NOT understanding one of those two absolutes is what KILLS PEOPLE with food allergies.  Please, anyone reading this having stumbled upon this post-- consider that and educate yourself.  Please.  My only motivation is to prevent people from dying-- particularly children.   :-[
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 18, 2012, 11:17:40 AM
Complain to the FDA, folks!

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Surveillance/DrugMarketingAdvertisingandCommunications/ucm209384.htm#RecognizeReport

Email: BadAd@fda.gov
Tell them that this ad overstates the effectiveness of EpiPen.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 18, 2012, 11:48:47 AM
Who or what is Mylan?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 18, 2012, 11:54:41 AM
Complain to the FDA, folks!

[url]http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Surveillance/DrugMarketingAdvertisingandCommunications/ucm209384.htm#RecognizeReport[/url]

Email: BadAd@fda.gov
Tell them that this ad overstates the effectiveness of EpiPen.


Thank you for this.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 12:00:15 PM
I sent DH the link to this thread and here's what he wrote me back:

Quote
"Wow, honey, I'm 58 years old, 90 pounds overweight, and have a history of heart problems. Are you sure I should run this marathon?"

"Don't be silly, dear. With the new MedAssist Portable Defibrillator, we'll be prepared!"

I do love his sense of humor.

coffee on screen now lol
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 12:02:52 PM
the ad itself makes me angry.  The fact that when questioned by the allergy community, they say FAAN Supports it.  That makes me so mad.  Heeelllloooo people, not every allergic family supports FAAN....and for reasons like this.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 18, 2012, 01:12:06 PM
I suspect, since it is a marketing campaign, they are targeting people who might need epipens, but do not bother.  They will not be selling any more epipens to people like us here.  We already buy as many as we can.  So, if you are the person who thinks, I won't ever need that, and Iknow a few, maybe they are trying to reach those folks.  Make them recinsider.  "Hmmm, maybe I shoud get one." 

Education?  Right. It is all about money and trying to sell more epipens, right? 

Really misleading ad for the general public to see.
Well, maybe they have something there-- since I'm not sure just how many epipens it would take for me to live as though I didn't have any food allergies.  But I'm pretty sure it's more than a pair of refills every 18 months. 

That may be the underlying profit motive, as impossibly ICKY as it seems.   :disappointed:  More reactions = more sales.  More avoidance = FEWER sales.

Simple, if particularly appalling calculus, that.  Don't think that discussions like that are not made around boardroom tables, though.  Take a look at any product safety scandal for examples of who knew what, and when, and the calculation of "how much will it cost to fix versus how much will it cost to pay off the people we kill?"


Fairly short-sighted on the other hand, since if everyone TOOK the implied advice in the ad, they'd soon be selling a lot FEWER epipens when many food allergic people died after massive, catastrophic exposures undertaken with the "not-to-worry, I'll just use epinphrine so that I can live any way I please" attitude they are advocating.  Oh, and when many of the incorrectly diagnosed figured out through trial and error that--whoops-- diagnosis was incorrect after all and isn't it great that Timmy doesn't really HAVE a milk allergy after all these years of avoidance...



Remember, Maria Acebal is a former Dey exec.  I'm not terribly surprised if there is a partnership between FAAN and Dey/Mylan such that the PR is a well-oiled machine and FAAN is controlling their message on the subject for the sake of that partnership. 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 01:33:03 PM
okay, CM you're giving me chills. 

Even if the message was supposed to be "carry your epi pen", they did not do a good job IMHO by clouding the message with an insinuation that he was carrying his epi pen because he'd be eating cake with who knows what

How about a story line where in spite of strict avoidance, a reaction occurred and thankfully an epi pen was available? 

Maybe creepy but how about something along the lines of what the smoke detector ads were awhile back....smoke detectors help save lives, with the follow ups to change the batteries. 

"you never know when an allergic reaction will come, be ready with EPI Pen autoinjector.  Carrying an epi pen at all times will improve your chances of surviving an allergic reaction."  followed up by remember to check the dates of your epi pens and replace them as needed. 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: becca on April 18, 2012, 02:33:46 PM
Oh, CM, I was not thinking they were hoping for more reactions, and therefore more epi sales.  Just that they may be targeting a less aware audience, and making them think they should go get that epi they don't carry.  I know alot of folks with allergies who do not carry epie(foods, bees, etc...). 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: becca on April 18, 2012, 02:40:30 PM
A better ad would be the ignorant party thrower swearing there were no nuts in the cake and then a reaction, and the "Well, I picked a few off the top of the cake."
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: maeve on April 18, 2012, 02:41:08 PM
Remember, Maria Acebal is a former Dey exec.  I'm not terribly surprised if there is a partnership between FAAN and Dey/Mylan such that the PR is a well-oiled machine and FAAN is controlling their message on the subject for the sake of that partnership. 

Not only is she a former Dey exec but Dey is a major source of funding for FAAN.  Can you spell conflict of interest?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 02:42:28 PM
kind of like wearing a seat belt.  Just because you wear your seat belt are you guaranteed safety during an accident?? Just because you're wearing it, does it mean you should drive carelessly? 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: maeve on April 18, 2012, 02:52:54 PM
According to FAAN's 2010 annual report (the latest available on their web site), they receive more than $100K annually from Dey.  They receive nearly $3.6 million in contributions and grants and about $600K from membership dues. 
 
http://www.foodallergy.org/files/2010FAAN_AnRep_FinalWeb.pdf
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: ajasfolks2 on April 18, 2012, 04:01:36 PM
It's much cooler here tonight with weather change.  I really don't want to run the furnace.

Perhaps we'll haul in the chiminea and use it in the living room tonight.

Why not?  We've got *2* fire extinguishers in the house!!

Chiminea's are so much fun.  My kids will be so excited!!!


 :bonking:

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 18, 2012, 04:08:52 PM
I've written my letters, and lodged a phone complaint with Dey as well.  And I've alerted my local support group.  One of their members is very active with FAI; I'm sure she'll have some interesting input.

Must start dinner, then I'm writing to FAAN as well.  I am soooo steamed about this. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 18, 2012, 04:21:10 PM
Thanks, everyone, for thinking about this and expressing your thoughts to Dey, to the FDA, and/or to others.

One thing that DD pointed out was (and this was ENTIRELY uncoached, I just showed her the ad-- no titling, no preface, no nothing);  "Wow.  Way to make it seem as though this doesn't interfere with ANYTHING in a person's life.  It makes us look like total WHINERS if we don't live like <hand gestures> THAT."


She also had some choice things to say about the obvious extensions to gun safety... auto insurance, health insurance, etc.  Yes, she went on for quite some time, once she stopped that initial speechless spluttering in inchoate fury.

This pathologically cheery "this is NO! BIG! DEAL!" attitude is fairly classic in the context of FAAN rhetoric, too, though, and it's a prime reason why we dropped our membership when DD was but a tiny tot.

They clearly weren't interested in OUR experiences with food allergies.  Our experiences were so profoundly COUNTER to that cheery, Stepford-esque worldview of how to manage allergies that we were distinctly persona non grata.

SO what if they alienate kids who can't GO to the party with a cake made from "who knows what"?  It's not like anyone with a reaction history like THAT is ever going to stop carrying epinephrine anyway.  Why try harder, YK?

Which on the one hand, I understand as an outreach thing.  I get that they want to reach the people (as becca pointed out) who don't think that they NEED to be carrying epi because they are determined to "live their lives" in spite of FA. 

I just don't think it is necessary to take a giant crap on those of us who don't ever have that luxury by virtue of our (or our child's) unfortunate circumstances (being much more sensitive than average, being inconveniently allergic to a non-top-8 allergen, and/or not "outgrowing" those pesky ubiquitous allergens like wheat, soy, or milk).  Way to make life even harder for the subset of people whose lives are ALREADY HARDER THAN MOST people with the condition.  Way to make them have to work that much harder to gain the cooperation of those around them.   

Yeah.  Too bad we choose to be such a bunch of PITA's.  We should just... lighten up and carry MORE epinephrine. Idiocy.  :rant:  <fuming>
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Ciel on April 18, 2012, 04:51:04 PM
I'm just speechless. Unbelievable
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: LinksEtc on April 18, 2012, 04:51:46 PM
we were distinctly persona non grata.

I am familiar with this status  :) . 

Wrote my letter.  Done.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: maeve on April 18, 2012, 05:47:25 PM
Thanks, everyone, for thinking about this and expressing your thoughts to Dey, to the FDA, and/or to others.

One thing that DD pointed out was (and this was ENTIRELY uncoached, I just showed her the ad-- no titling, no preface, no nothing);  "Wow.  Way to make it seem as though this doesn't interfere with ANYTHING in a person's life.  It makes us look like total WHINERS if we don't live like <hand gestures> THAT."


She also had some choice things to say about the obvious extensions to gun safety... auto insurance, health insurance, etc.  Yes, she went on for quite some time, once she stopped that initial speechless spluttering in inchoate fury.

This pathologically cheery "this is NO! BIG! DEAL!" attitude is fairly classic in the context of FAAN rhetoric, too, though, and it's a prime reason why we dropped our membership when DD was but a tiny tot.

They clearly weren't interested in OUR experiences with food allergies.  Our experiences were so profoundly COUNTER to that cheery, Stepford-esque worldview of how to manage allergies that we were distinctly persona non grata.

SO what if they alienate kids who can't GO to the party with a cake made from "who knows what"?  It's not like anyone with a reaction history like THAT is ever going to stop carrying epinephrine anyway.  Why try harder, YK?

Which on the one hand, I understand as an outreach thing.  I get that they want to reach the people (as becca pointed out) who don't think that they NEED to be carrying epi because they are determined to "live their lives" in spite of FA. 

I just don't think it is necessary to take a giant crap on those of us who don't ever have that luxury by virtue of our (or our child's) unfortunate circumstances (being much more sensitive than average, being inconveniently allergic to a non-top-8 allergen, and/or not "outgrowing" those pesky ubiquitous allergens like wheat, soy, or milk).  Way to make life even harder for the subset of people whose lives are ALREADY HARDER THAN MOST people with the condition.  Way to make them have to work that much harder to gain the cooperation of those around them.   

Yeah.  Too bad we choose to be such a bunch of PITA's.  We should just... lighten up and carry MORE epinephrine. Idiocy.  :rant:  <fuming>
These are very good points.  The commercial like so much marketing/outreach about food allergies only focuses on peanut allergy.  It's as if that were the only allergy that existed.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 18, 2012, 05:53:14 PM
I wish I could read the print on the ad.  I searched for a better quality version, but couldn't find one.  Interesting that it isn't one of the ads on the website.

When I spoke to the customer service rep @ Dey, he sounded quite concerned, perhaps disturbed.  I wasn't sure if it was,"OMG, I didn't realize it came off like that" disturbed, or, "OMG, this is the 100th call I've gotten today about this ad" disturbed.  Interesting.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mezzo on April 18, 2012, 07:12:41 PM
It was hard for me to catch what they were saying the first few times I watched it, and I couldn't read the text was too blurry to read. Maybe that contributed to my mixed response. She isn't saying he's going to eat it. So it isn't blatant to me. It's not good as something the whole world will see, because they'll take it as a model way to manage a food allergy with a kid, when there are many ways to manage them. It encourages the "it's no big deal " attitude, which happens more than it should. There d be something like "of course I'm not going to eat the cake, but it's safer to have the Epi in case of anything happening."
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 18, 2012, 07:50:16 PM
I simply don't like the message that some risks are okay to take "if you have an Epipen with you."

 :fishslap:

THAT is just wrong, wrong, wrong in terms of management.  It implies, first and foremost, that epinephrine is a "management" tool, or some kind of mitigating measure that reduces apparent risk.

This is not so.  Any situation which is "too risky" is no less so because of rescue meds.

Secondly, it encourages the very myth that kills:  that carrying  epinephrine is "more important" at some times than at others.  E.g.-- when food will be around or eaten.

This is particularly troubling to me given that numerous research studies demonstrate that the two fallacies that occur with distressing frequency in fatalities in both children and young adults are the following:

a) a belief in flexible risk management for social fit-- some risks which would be unacceptable most of the time can become "acceptible" when the benefit is percieved to be correspondingly large.  Teens in particular are guilty of this one, taking horrible risks because they WANT to manage things the way this ad portrays doing, and secondly;

b) a belief that epinephrine is only for occasions where KNOWN risks will be incurred.  Well, this is the logic that leads children to have epipens in lockers and young adults to have them in dorm rooms and cars.  Because they didn't PLAN to anaphylax.  Of course, naturally, the question is then "Who does??"  This is a kissing cousin to the notion that "I'm careful what I eat, so I don't need epinephrine," and also to "I won't be eating anything."


These two myths KILL people.  They. kill. them.  Over the years that I've been reading fatality stories, those two factors are in play in AT LEAST 90% of those stories.  At least.



Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Janelle205 on April 18, 2012, 08:50:30 PM
So glad that I don't have to worry about what is in my food anymore, since I always have my epi-pen.


Wonder how this plan to just use epinephrine willy-nilly is going to go over with my family doctor, who treats me for a heart condition.  Guessing she won't like it.



Along with this logic, I guess I can take up smoking then too, right?  I mean, I have an inhaler and about 5 nebulizers.  I should be good.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 18, 2012, 09:04:07 PM
You want to know the no-holds-barred cynical take on this from my family?

They've seen the writing on the wall with new component testing and new practice paramters for food allergy.  Their cash cow is about to be slaughtered when 30-60% of this huge wave of "allergy kids" turn out to not have allergies after all, at least not outside of RAST/SPT.

Dey has to make as much money off of those people as possible-- before they figure it out.

 :disappointed:

What better way to get to a mom that has never even FILLED that script?  What better way to get to parents that "don't want to be THOSE people" but want to live normally?  What better way to drive scripts than by promoting epinephrine as a lifestyle drug.  Sure.  For "special occasions" only.  Those times when you KNOW that you'll be taking big risks.  You don't have to MODIFY YOUR LIFE.  Epi fits the way YOU want to live! 



(I seriously just threw up a little in my mouth as I typed those icky, icky words.)

I think this is the promotion of an off-label use of the medication.  Seriously. 
Read both the prescribing info and the patient product insert for it:


http://www.drugs.com/pro/epipen.html
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 18, 2012, 10:01:48 PM
http://www.dey.com/

here's link to two other commercials.  I think they are very weak.  they never show the product, in the first one they say, "she's your little peanut, but now she has a peanut allergy"
they say what the product is for but nothing about always carrying it etc.  very weak imho. 
while searching, i found a post about a different commercial from 2009 for epi pen.  apparently they were on baseball field and the narration is a mom telling about her son's reaction to bee sting and how epi pen helped him.  the narration went on to say how epi pen can help with food reactions as well.  camera pans to the dugout and kid eating peanuts (apparently the bag he was holding was labeled PEANUTS). 
I think their ad campaigns need a bit of help!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 19, 2012, 07:33:33 AM
According to my buddy, this is posted on FAAN's support group leader page:

Earlier this week, FAAN was made aware of Mylan's new advertisement campaign for EpiPen(R) Auto-Injectors and we understand the source of concern that many of you expressed.  We have reached out to Mylan to share these important concerns. We will provide you with an update as soon as we have more information.
 
In the meantime, please be assured that FAAN’s position remains the same: The cornerstone of food allergy management is strict avoidance of the allergen, recognition of symptoms, and prompt treatment of reactions with prescribed medication that should be carried at all times.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 19, 2012, 08:55:22 AM
Well, good for FAAN.  I mean that.

Now, if only they had the $$ to put that in a minute-long national TV spot, eh?  I guess that Mylan's contributuion doesn't stretch that far.   :-[
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 19, 2012, 09:00:23 AM
when i orignially read the first post about Mylan's stand on the complaints, I thought it said FAAN supported the ad.  I see that isn't the case.

I will be interested to see what FAAN comes out with on this. 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: tnmom on April 19, 2012, 09:19:58 AM
OMG!  That is so messed up.  Could they be more non-caring and irresponsible with our children’s lives?  They are sending a horrible message!
Of course, they forgot the rest of the dialogue.  Let me help them out:

MOM:   So what if there’s peanut in the cake?  With Epi-pen, it’s okay if you have a reaction.  Even when your face swells up until you’re unrecognizable and you’re gasping for air and afraid you’re going to die.  You can pull your mighty Epi-pen!

SON:  It’s like a super hero!

MOM:  Now, I realize that all your friends may look at you like you’re a freak and Max’s parent will go into a major panic, but you can show them how cool you are by pulling out your Epi-pen and stabbing yourself in the leg.

SON:  Yeah!

MOM:   Thanks to Epi-pen you will feel better ....for a few minutes anyway.  Then, as you’re shaking uncontrollably from all the epinephrine and you start feeling your throat closing up again, the ambulance will come just in time to give you more epinephrine and carry you away in front of all your friends on a stretcher.  Won’t that make for an exciting birthday party for little Max?

SON:  It sure will!

MOM:  But wait.  It gets better!  Once you get to the hospital, the doctors and nurses will poke you with a lot more needles and give you a lot more medicine, while you keep having biphasic reactions for the rest of the day.  If you’re really lucky, your reactions will be so out of control they will want to keep you overnight for observation. 

SON:  Wow!  It’s kind of like a vacation!

MOM:  With Epi-pen, there’s nothing to worry about.  You’re covered.  And to top it all off, your dad and I get rewarded with a $4,500 hospital and ambulance bill.   Just think, if you take a lot of risks eating things that may be unsafe for you, we may have so many medical bills that we may have to sell the house and move in with Grandma!

SON:  I love Grandma!

MOM:  See.  Everything will be fine because, well, you have your Epi-pen!

SON:  Thanks, Mom!  You’re the best!




Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 19, 2012, 09:25:17 AM
 :coffee:  (reads post)



Wiping coffee from screen   :rofl:

Clearly you have a future in advertising.   :thumbsup:


I have to admit, here, that my very first thought when I saw this ad in the video was to wonder to myself...



is this even for real??  Is this, like, a SNL skit or something??

Truly.  It was that surreal to me-- the over-the-top cheerful tone, the Botox-Barbie look on Mom's face as she's saying the lines, etc.  I was just waiting for the punchline.  I was disappointed, because usually I find this kind of thing quite FUNNY.  It was only then that I realized... uh... they were serious about the ad. 

I mean, all three ads really have that semi-creepy Pleasantville/Stepford surrealist vibe about them, I thought.  20 seconds for the "emotional hook" part and then thirty seconds for all the side effects and cautions?  Not a good mix, really, and particularly when you don't even say what the drug is actually going to DO to HELP the child.   :insane:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: tnmom on April 19, 2012, 09:43:54 AM
Yeah, I had to watch it about 4 or 5 times because I had a hard time believing it was real too.   From my point of view, this commercial makes them look like complete idiots, like they don't understand food allergies at all.  Not really building much trust or loyalty with the people who buy their products.   
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 19, 2012, 09:44:56 AM
I wrote an e-mail to fda and left a message for an apparently very busy customer service guy at Dey.  I also wrote an e-mail to Mylan. 
During my time on the Mylan website, I noticed they recently settled a patent issue with Sanofi/Intelliject for the e-cue.  they are allowed to start producing the new product at the end of 2012. 
It is a branch off of the e-card and apparently talks to you to be sure you know how to administer it etc.  Wonder if they are worried their huge/bulky new epi pen design will fall out of favor when a talking, credit card sized alternative hits the market?

http://www.in-pharmatechnologist.com/Packaging/Tentative-US-OK-for-Intelliject-s-talking-delivery-device

Here is the info from Mylan website about the settlement:
Mylan and Pfizer Announce Epinephrine Auto-injector Settlement Agreement


PITTSBURGH and NEW YORK, Feb. 16, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Mylan Inc. (Nasdaq: MYL) and Pfizer Inc. (NYSE: PFE) today announced that Meridian Medical Technologies, a Pfizer subsidiary, has entered into a settlement agreement with Intelliject and Sanofi-Aventis that will resolve pending patent litigation related to Intelliject's 505(b)(2) new drug application (NDA) for its epinephrine auto-injector known as e-cue™, which will be manufactured and marketed by Sanofi-Aventis. According to the terms of the settlement, Intelliject and Sanofi-Aventis may launch e-cue no earlier than Nov. 15, 2012, subject to receipt of final approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

Meridian manufactures EpiPen® Auto-Injector and Mylan Specialty markets and distributes the product in the United States.

Mylan Chief Executive Officer Heather Bresch commented, "We are pleased with this settlement, and are confident that the EpiPen® Auto-Injector will continue to be a market leader, given the proud, 20-year heritage of this important treatment for anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis poses a life-threatening risk for many, and yet there continues to be low awareness of the signs, symptoms or steps that can be taken to be prepared to respond when anaphylaxis occurs - including ensuring immediate access to epinephrine auto-injectors. That is why we believe that, in addition to our significant efforts in this area, people with life-threatening allergic reactions will benefit from more voices in the fight to raise anaphylaxis awareness, preparedness and access to treatment."

Additional terms of the agreement are confidential, and the agreement itself is subject to review by the U.S. Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: rebekahc on April 19, 2012, 10:11:59 AM
This video needs to play right after the new ad...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yriX-3UwrCA
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 19, 2012, 10:53:36 AM
Quote
Mylan Chief Executive Officer Heather Bresch commented, "We are pleased with this settlement, and are confident that the EpiPen® Auto-Injector will continue to be a market leader, given the proud, 20-year heritage of this important treatment for anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis poses a life-threatening risk for many, and yet there continues to be low awareness of the signs, symptoms or steps that can be taken to be prepared to respond when anaphylaxis occurs - including ensuring immediate access to epinephrine auto-injectors. That is why we believe that, in addition to our significant efforts in this area, people with life-threatening allergic reactions will benefit from more voices in the fight to raise anaphylaxis awareness, preparedness and access to treatment."

Maybe they should think about what the CEO said here when they are making their next ad.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: YouKnowWho on April 19, 2012, 11:01:11 AM
Aye yi yi, I missed this yesterday.

I know it's only 30 seconds but they couldn't have added, Epi check, safe treat check, etc?

I had an allergist whose mindset was that "may contains" or "processed on's" were too limiting and that is why we have an Epi pen.  Mind you she was the one who was convinced my child was allergic to everything (and also recommended HFCS containing Gator-Ade to my child with a corn allergy because it doesn't bother her corn allergy).  I wonder if she is a rep for Dey....

Should drug companies be allowed to advertise their products in this age of Dr. Google?  I would rather see allergy support services advertising having epinephrine on hand if you do have food allergies.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: ajasfolks2 on April 19, 2012, 11:03:34 AM
Who is the ad/marketing agency that accomplished (I use that term loosely) the "new" ads for Epipen?

How do we find that out?  Possible?

Any of our super-sleuths able to do?

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: ajasfolks2 on April 19, 2012, 11:08:26 AM
Adding -- just some links I get, in no particular order and NO CLUE what is truly relevant:

(Googled
Mylan Epipen "ad agency"  )

http://www.2degreesos.co.nz/2Degrees_of_Separation/Mylan-epipen.html



https://www.adpharm.net/blog/2011/08/page/3/
(Exploring this site might prove useful?)



Another source might be bizjournals?


OK, you market/business folks need to chime in here, PLEASE!!

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: TabiCat on April 19, 2012, 11:13:32 AM
YEAH  :hiding: lets go a decade back in awareness. How many times in comments on awareness or school articles do we read just get the kid an epi-pen. We don't need to be encouraging such thinking.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 19, 2012, 11:24:00 AM
Quote
Mylan Chief Executive Officer Heather Bresch commented, "We are pleased with this settlement, and are confident that the EpiPen® Auto-Injector will continue to be a market leader, given the proud, 20-year heritage of this important treatment for anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis poses a life-threatening risk for many, and yet there continues to be low awareness of the signs, symptoms or steps that can be taken to be prepared to respond when anaphylaxis occurs - including ensuring immediate access to epinephrine auto-injectors. That is why we believe that, in addition to our significant efforts in this area, people with life-threatening allergic reactions will benefit from more voices in the fight to raise anaphylaxis awareness, preparedness and access to treatment."

Maybe they should think about what the CEO said here when they are making their next ad.

I think that they ARE keeping that in mind.

Just not the "prevention" part of things.   :misspeak:  Which, if you get right down to it, probably is NOT in Dey/Mylan/Meridia's best interests financially anyway.

Yes, I'm rather thinking that this might have played a role in these new spots, and I'm further thinking that the FDA needs to rein them in, because this is NOT NOT NOT in the best-practices for the condition.  Period.  Ignoring "avoidance" in these spots and emphasizing only "response" is very dangerous.   :-[

Other countries prohibit direct-to-consumer advertising for exactly these reasons.  Drug companies may say that they are running ads to "educate" but they most certainly are NOT doing multi-million-dollar cash layouts out of philanthropic motives.  They are doing it to drive SALES. 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 19, 2012, 11:30:29 AM
I will say that many ads for medications are so ridiculous/scary that they make you want to think twice before taking them.....
if you have an erection lasting more than 4 hours.... (Cialis)  lol

complications of this drug include sudden death, trouble breathing, (loosely quoted for Advair)

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 19, 2012, 02:26:08 PM
Nothing about signs or symptoms....and nothing about HOW to use the epi-pen.

I'm going to assume a parents that says "whatever the cake is made of" we have your epi-pen, is probably not a parent who will stay at the party OR EVEN make sure anyone there knows how to use an epi-pen.....so, really, if they are going to encourage this behaviour through a commercial, they should be sure to explain sign, symptoms and how to use their magic juice.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 19, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
FAAN replied to one of my posts on facebook (on the FAI page):

" The new commercial for EpiPen®, which aired in many markets this week, has caused great concern among many in the food allergy community. We at FAAN viewed this commercial for the first time this week.

FAAN was not involved in any aspect of the direction or production of this commercial, which was distributed by Mylan Specialty. We recognize the issues surrounding the messaging of this commercial, and we have been working behind the scenes to convey our concerns and yours. To that end, we have invited Mylan to share with us any new promotional campaigns centered around food allergies so that we may help ensure that important messaging to patients and their caregivers is clear: there is no cure for food allergies, and strict avoidance of the allergen is the only way to prevent a potentially life-threatening allergic reaction.

We value the opinions of the food allergy community – a dynamic, passionate, and vital group that has united to accomplish so much on behalf of individuals affected by food allergies. We look forward to working with all of our partners in our efforts to raise public awareness, to provide advocacy and education, and to advance research on behalf of all those affected by food allergies and anaphylaxis."
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: boo on April 19, 2012, 05:54:04 PM
I had to drop in to see what the "take" was on this one. Posting to tell you Connelly Partners (I'm pretty sure) is the ad agency.

I did write a blog post in which I metatagged both the ad agency and the marketing manager in case they use Goggle Alerts. Hopefully they at least know there's a problem now.

P.S. On a personal note, my son failed his peanut challenge today for the FAHF-2 study. We are SO GLAD to have it over with. The fail was not terrible as these things go, so we're happy.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: rebekahc on April 19, 2012, 06:02:43 PM
boo ~ 
:bye:

:heart: 

:grouphug:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 19, 2012, 06:25:26 PM
A blog about this ad

http://alwayssick.com/2012/04/19/new-epipen-ad-is-dangerous-for-food-allergy-families/
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 19, 2012, 06:26:04 PM
Boo, sorry about the peanut challenge.  Will he still be taking part in the study?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 19, 2012, 06:32:05 PM
boo ~ 
:bye:

:heart: 

:grouphug:

I can't say it any better than that.

I already saw (and commented on) your fabulous blog post, by the way.   :thumbsup:  I seriously  :heart:the new blog, as if you couldn't tell.

I was talking to DH and DD about FAHF-2 the other night after seeing that there was a study in your area and that your DS was a participant.  I'm sorry that he failed a PN challenge, but glad that the reaction wasn't too bad.  It really is wonderful to see you.   :smooch:

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 19, 2012, 06:35:48 PM
Hi Boo!  Great blog, btw. 
Glad to see you.  I'm very sorry about the fail today.  Hope he's okay. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: boo on April 19, 2012, 07:29:01 PM
Oh, he's fine! A fail in this context is a good thing - it means he's in the study. If he passed the peanut challenge, he would not have been eligible (or would need to qualify with one of his other allergies, and only hazelnuts are on their list, something to which he's never had a real reaction). He's sleeping off the Benedryl now, but it was more boring than scary, other than the 20 minutes of acute reaction.

I actually learned quite a lot today. I'll have to write a whole blog post to get it all in, but one interesting note: they consider a lowering of peak flow to be an objective symptom of a food allergy. He didn't need to get to all-out wheezing. There was no Epi - only Benedryl. (And incidently, CM, all 4 clinicians in the room had the same take on Benedryl short-circuiting reactions that you do.)

And thanks for the blog feedback. I've had haters coming out of the woodwork lately, so I appreciate it a great deal. We've become a sorry community if there's only room for one official opinion on issues and anyone who doesn't conform is shunned or harassed. Just another way I'm feeling Amish, I guess. :)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: yelloww on April 19, 2012, 07:44:47 PM
Hi Boo!  :bye:

(D-man's/donovans mom)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: LinksEtc on April 19, 2012, 07:52:13 PM
Hi from me also     :bye:

I miss seeing you around here.  Hope you are doing well.  I was thinking of commenting on one of your blog posts but wasn't sure which profile to choose.  Nice blog.


Glad to see FAAN's statement regarding the Epi ad.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 19, 2012, 08:03:40 PM
Oh, he's fine! A fail in this context is a good thing - it means he's in the study. If he passed the peanut challenge, he would not have been eligible (or would need to qualify with one of his other allergies, and only hazelnuts are on their list, something to which he's never had a real reaction). He's sleeping off the Benedryl now, but it was more boring than scary, other than the 20 minutes of acute reaction.

I actually learned quite a lot today. I'll have to write a whole blog post to get it all in, but one interesting note: they consider a lowering of peak flow to be an objective symptom of a food allergy. He didn't need to get to all-out wheezing. There was no Epi - only Benedryl. (And incidently, CM, all 4 clinicians in the room had the same take on Benedryl short-circuiting reactions that you do.)

And thanks for the blog feedback. I've had haters coming out of the woodwork lately, so I appreciate it a great deal. We've become a sorry community if there's only room for one official opinion on issues and anyone who doesn't conform is shunned or harassed. Just another way I'm feeling Amish, I guess. :)

why not join and stay awhile? 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: momma2boys on April 19, 2012, 08:25:09 PM
Hi boo!  :bye:   Glad ds gets to be in the study!  I hope you will stick around and keep us posted.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Carefulmom on April 19, 2012, 08:43:37 PM
Hi Boo! :bye: Anything new with the milk allergy?  As I recall, your ds is about the same age as my dd 17.

Glad to hear he will be in a peanut study.  That`s great news!  Glad to hear that his fail was not too horrible.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 19, 2012, 09:02:54 PM
Hi Boo!  So happy to see you here.  And I love the blog too!

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: booandbrimom on April 20, 2012, 07:21:33 AM
You guys are really, really sweet. Ok...I'm officially registered. But I really need to limit my time here! (Who's laughing right now, knowing how that's gone for me over the last 13 years...)

Carefulmom, I've thought of your daughter often. We started baked milk last summer. Frankly, it's been hard to get geared up for it, since my son still had mild reactions if we cross a magical threshold. He cannot tolerate baked cheese at all. However, we were up to half milk/butter in a cinnamon roll recipe before stopping for this trial. Unfortunately, we can't do both, at least at first. They want to know the changes are the results of the medication, not mild dosing.

How is your daughter doing?

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: booandbrimom on April 20, 2012, 08:09:57 AM
Back to the topic...looks like FAAN has issued a statement:

**************************

The new commercial for EpiPen®, which aired in many markets this week, has caused great concern among many in the food allergy community. We at FAAN viewed this commercial for the first time this week.

FAAN was not involved in any aspect of the direction or production of this commercial, which was distributed by Mylan Specialty. We recognize the issues surrounding the messaging of this commercial, and we have been working behind the scenes to convey our concerns and yours. To that end, we have invited Mylan to share with us any new promotional campaigns centered around food allergies so that we may help ensure that important messaging to patients and their caregivers is clear: there is no cure for food allergies, and strict avoidance of the allergen is the only way to prevent a potentially life-threatening allergic reaction.

We value the opinions of the food allergy community – a dynamic, passionate, and vital group that has united to accomplish so much on behalf of individuals affected by food allergies. We look forward to working with all of our partners in our efforts to raise public awareness, to provide advocacy and education, and to advance research on behalf of all those affected by food allergies and anaphylaxis.

**************************

So, to read (between the lines):

1. We didn't (want to) know about it (up front because we can't control them).

2. (We asked them pretty please to change it and they said no. So then) we asked if we could look at future commercials they make (and they said no).

3. We value your opinion (even if we're not going to take a stand about it). You're dynamic, passionate and vital (but please stop sending up crazy emails).

(Please just forget this and don't drop your memberships.)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 20, 2012, 09:10:49 AM
I just read a rumor that Mylan is pulling the ad.  We'll see... keeping my fingers crossed!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 20, 2012, 09:22:20 AM
Well, that would be nice if they pulled the ad.  Hopefully, they will do better next time.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 20, 2012, 10:01:09 AM
Laughing out loud at your parenthetical interpretation, Boo.  That's pretty much what I had thought, too.

Along with:


4. (What did you all expect, anyway?  It's not like Mylan is a nonprofit, is it?  You all just need to understand that they are driving sales here, which is good for everyone because more sales = more efficiency-- and quit naively assuming that this is about YOU.)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: socks on a rooster on April 20, 2012, 11:10:51 AM
Confirming ad has been pulled.  :yes:

From Elizabeth Goldenberg-onespot Allergy: Update via Dr. John James CO Allergy Asthma:
"I just heard from the FAAN office and they said that Mylan will be pulling the commercial on EpiPen today. Apparently, they are going to extensively modify the commercial and said that FAAN may review the content before launching again later this summer. This will be a good thing!!! You can pass this information along…" Dr. John James WAY TO GO Lisa Horne, Arizona Food Allergy Alliance, and Team Anaphylaxis for spearheading the effort to get this dangerous ad off the air! Thank you to everyone who tweeted, posted, emailed, and called Dey Pharma/Mylan and the FDA. Victory!!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 20, 2012, 11:17:01 AM
Socks, that is really great news.  Ah, the power of social media!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 20, 2012, 11:19:22 AM
That is good news.  This new campaign of Dey's really needs some tweaking. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 20, 2012, 11:28:04 AM
Really hoping this youtube link works.  I can't get the song out of my head.  Posted it on our fb page as well. lol

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N45kozZSLII
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 20, 2012, 11:36:57 AM
great news!!! 
thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 20, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
According to Allergic Living, it is definitely being pulled.   As soon as they have the "official" statement, they will share it on their website.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 20, 2012, 11:59:49 AM
Gwen posted that she has now recieved the news officially from Mylan.

Posted on their fb page.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 20, 2012, 01:16:51 PM
The following email was shared on facebook:

"Dear Mr. [name redacted],

Mylan Specialty is committed to raising anaphylaxis awareness and preparedness among people directly affected by life-threatening allergies and our advertising efforts play an important role in increasing awareness. However, Mylan Specialty has heard the concerns from the allergy community about our most recent television ad, and we take them seriously.

Mylan Specialty recognizes that allergen avoidance is a critical first step to all anaphylaxis management plans and would never intentionally suggest otherwise.

Unfortunately, despite best efforts, unintentional exposure to allergens happens, and yet less than 10% of patients at risk for anaphylaxis are carrying an epinephrine auto-injector.

In light of this, the intent of our “Max’s Birthday” advertisement is to generate greater awareness for anaphylaxis and remind parents about the importance of always having an epinephrine auto-injector readily available for children at risk for life-threatening allergic reactions.

Mylan Specialty values the relationships we have built within the allergy community and appreciates the insights provided by patients, parents, physicians and advocates for those living with life-threatening allergies.

Mylan Specialty has stopped airing the ad while we make modifications to address the feedback we have received."
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: socks on a rooster on April 20, 2012, 02:17:14 PM

"Mylan Specialty recognizes that allergen avoidance is a critical first step to all anaphylaxis management plans and would never intentionally suggest otherwise."

Um. Except they did in a commercial.  :dunce:

Doesn't really sound like taking responsibility to me.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 20, 2012, 02:23:03 PM

"Mylan Specialty recognizes that allergen avoidance is a critical first step to all anaphylaxis management plans and would never intentionally suggest otherwise."

Um. Except they did in a commercial.  :dunce:

Doesn't really sound like taking responsibility to me.

yup, that's what I was thinking. 
Also, that statistic makes me think that we were right about the purpose of the ad. 
I hope they can do another commercial that addresses and educates people about always having that AutoInjector.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 20, 2012, 02:30:44 PM

"Mylan Specialty recognizes that allergen avoidance is a critical first step to all anaphylaxis management plans and would never intentionally suggest otherwise."

Um. Except they did in a commercial.  :dunce:

Doesn't really sound like taking responsibility to me.

Bold added by me.  They may be telling the truth. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 20, 2012, 02:41:30 PM
No, I think that they allowed themselves wiggle room on that one, but I'm not convinced that the marketing strategy wasn't intentional, either.  I think that they FULLY intended to suggest what the ad suggested.  They were just hoping to find a loophole so that people who FOLLOW medical advice on the subject wouldn't be enraged that they were being thrown under the bus in the process.

(Epic FAIL, btw.)

I could suggest some alternate text for mom to be thinking.  Or a voice-over with narration--


Oh, sure, your son has food allergies.  But you aren't one of those militant food-Nazi parents.  Not you!  You don't let food allergies change the way YOU live! 

  Having an EpiPen doesn't make you a freak.  Only you can make you a freak...


and the laughingstock of nasty columnists...
and the butt of PTA jokes...
and reviled by every teacher, camp counselor, and child-care provider you'll ever know...

  That's not your style, Mom!

  But that doesn't mean you don't care for your child, too.  No, by golly, you just aren't going to let food allergies OWN your family.  Nope-- that's because you own an EpiPen, you don't let it own YOU.
<cue music... 'Go where you WANNA go... do what you WANNA do...'>

You can rest assured that EpiPen has you covered.  EpiPen fits YOUR life.



Because that was definitely the message.  Ohhhhhh yeah-- LOUD. and. CLEAR. 
"Not to worry, owning one of these babies won't turn you into one of the "un-cool" moms."

How am I doing?    :-/
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: socks on a rooster on April 20, 2012, 03:28:19 PM
Spot on baby IMO.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 20, 2012, 06:06:16 PM
Not until you start insisting that the school be responsible for the thing.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 20, 2012, 09:10:27 PM
See FAAN's response:

http://www.foodallergy.org/page/statement-on-maxs-birthday-epipen-tv-ad-
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 20, 2012, 09:42:26 PM
I'm glad that the ad has been pulled.  I think FAAN should give more credit to the little people who demanded that they sit up and pay attention!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 20, 2012, 09:44:14 PM
I think so, too. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 20, 2012, 10:13:46 PM
I'm glad that the ad has been pulled.  I think FAAN should give more credit to the little people who demanded that they sit up and pay attention!

QFT!  I love how they always pat themselves on the back, but they probably didn't even know about the ad until lots of other people in the community pointed it out.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: ajasfolks2 on April 21, 2012, 04:35:18 AM
I'm glad that the ad has been pulled.  I think FAAN should give more credit to the little people who demanded that they sit up and pay attention!

QFT!  I love how they always pat themselves on the back, but they probably didn't even know about the ad until lots of other people in the community pointed it out.


Geee, ya think?  (My bold and color, etc added to be sure this is seen.)


 ;D



 :bye:  Hi, FAAN!   :bye:

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: ajasfolks2 on April 21, 2012, 04:36:55 AM
Confirming ad has been pulled.  :yes:

From Elizabeth Goldenberg-onespot Allergy: Update via Dr. John James CO Allergy Asthma:
"I just heard from the FAAN office and they said that Mylan will be pulling the commercial on EpiPen today. Apparently, they are going to extensively modify the commercial and said that FAAN may review the content before launching again later this summer. This will be a good thing!!! You can pass this information along…" Dr. John James WAY TO GO Lisa Horne, Arizona Food Allergy Alliance, and Team Anaphylaxis for spearheading the effort to get this dangerous ad off the air! Thank you to everyone who tweeted, posted, emailed, and called Dey Pharma/Mylan and the FDA. Victory!!

This is pretty.   ;)

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: booandbrimom on April 21, 2012, 08:21:07 AM
I'm glad that the ad has been pulled.  I think FAAN should give more credit to the little people who demanded that they sit up and pay attention!

I think I should get the credit. I put the marketing manager's name and the ad agency in my blog, after all.   :watch: (I do have to say...I got a serious number of hits on that post, even after the Arizona group removed my link.)

Seriously, I think it's good that the commercial got pulled but I really don't feel like cheering about it. This might have actually helped moms who don't have Epi-Pens get Epi-Pens. Now they won't.

Kids without Epi-Pens. Yay.

It's a complicated issue. I hate how our community always makes it so black and white. You're either with "us" or you're not worth saving. I really don't see advocates stepping in and trying to reach these mothers and, as Mylan pointed out in their letter, there are a ton of them.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Carefulmom on April 21, 2012, 08:28:26 AM
You guys are really, really sweet. Ok...I'm officially registered. But I really need to limit my time here! (Who's laughing right now, knowing how that's gone for me over the last 13 years...)

Carefulmom, I've thought of your daughter often. We started baked milk last summer. Frankly, it's been hard to get geared up for it, since my son still had mild reactions if we cross a magical threshold. He cannot tolerate baked cheese at all. However, we were up to half milk/butter in a cinnamon roll recipe before stopping for this trial. Unfortunately, we can't do both, at least at first. They want to know the changes are the results of the medication, not mild dosing.

How is your daughter doing?

I will pm you.  I don`t want to hijack this thread.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: yelloww on April 21, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
Boo, I agree. Those people do need Epis; however, I'm not sure from that ad that those people who need to fill the Rx would still USE them.

I think it is good that they pulled the ad for now.... Especially if we are going to get a flood of future ads from them once that other new Epi from Sanfio (sp?) is on the market. If we all let this slide now, what would their message be when they ramp up the advertising later? Better to have them fix it now, than let them think this is ok and continue down this path.

They need to seriously rework the message in order to get their target audience on board while not misleading the public. I think it can be done; they just need a better writer!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 21, 2012, 11:01:14 AM
I'm not sure that there is a way to sell skeptical parents on the idea of needing Epinephrine autoinjectors when they are fixated on NOT CHANGING THEIR LIFESTYLE any.  These ads (all three) seem to have been targetint that particular demographic.  Well, fair enough-- they do need to hear some message that gets through to them and makes them carry rescue meds.  I'm not sure that these ads will actually do that, however, because they still seem to be slippery enough to fit into the construct that "Food allergy doesn't have to change anything." 

That is the real barrier, unfortunately, and selling devices to those people probably is not going to result in saved lives either way in that case, because they won't ever be carrying the devices continuously the way that they should, anyway.  (Just being kind of pragmatic about it-- those people really don't think that avoidance should have to be the major management strategy, and therefore, they are going to live in denial as long as their physicians and their own cognition will allow it.)

I'm glad that these ads were pulled.  But maybe not for the reason that the casual observer would expect.  I just saw this particular message as being simultaneously ineffective for the target group and damaging for the group that already carries Epi.  And no, I'm not okay with trading increased risk for a group at known risk of anaphylaxis (as many of those people are) in order to get the other group to BUY autoinjectors that they: a) won't carry everywhere, and b) have the erroneous impression can mitigate risk from overt ingestion.

I hope that the company invests a bit more in some risk psych inputs in the next go-round.  Because I'm all for reaching that group.  But I'm not all for reassuring them (or anyone else-- maybe especially anyone else) that ignorance and Pollyanna is a great way to live with FA.  The bottom line is that what they don't know deliberately choose not to know-- CAN hurt them.  Let's tackle that one. 
I don't think that anyone IS saying that it's not possible to live a life where a food allergic child eats cake at birthday parties or rides the school bus or goes rafting...

but those things take PLANNING to do safely.  They do.  That part, there just isn't any getting around.  FA takes the spontaneity out of things like that if they are to be done with any degree of safety.  Allowing people who need to understand that message to continue blithely thinking that "my child's allergy isn't like that" is what kills kids and young adults.  Because if it's a food allergy-- it is "like that".  It's going to require some thought and planning to manage.  <shrug>

Different families and individuals may make different choices/decisions about risk-benefit.  But what OUGHT to be uniform is that those peopl should know that this is what they are doing.  KWIM?

I'm not sure how to pour that into a 30 second feel-good commercial.  This is like selling defibrillators, really-- I'm not sure that there IS a fun way to advertise dtc here.  Not and be responsible and accurate.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Carefulmom on April 21, 2012, 12:19:16 PM
I'm glad that the ad has been pulled.  I think FAAN should give more credit to the little people who demanded that they sit up and pay attention!

I just saw the ad on TV this morning.  I had not seen it before.  The mom is just so cheerful about the cake with who-knows-what and the fact that he has his epipen as though it will solve everything.  Is there any chance at all that they were implying that he might have contact issues due to the cake with "who-knows-what" and that he is not going to be eating it?  Even if that is what they meant, it should have been stated, as there is no way the non-allergy public could possibly know that.  The ad is horrible...gives totally the wrong impression.  Somewhere someone will have more difficulty getting certain accomodations in their 504 due to this ad.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 21, 2012, 12:22:57 PM
Carefulmom, I assumed that that's what they meant.  But it is hardly clear from the commercial (unless it was in the fine print at the bottom that I couldn't read), and not the conclusion that 99% of the viewers would come to.  Very, very damaging, IMHO.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 21, 2012, 01:02:44 PM
Well, I think that even if they are targeting the group who doesn't carry it, there are better ways to give the message and I still think that particular ad didn't really accomplish that anyway. 
I think that a person of AUTHORITY like a doctor heading up the commercial and addressing
why carry it, strict avoidance, that previous reactions don't predict future ones would be a good. 

I still think a lot of this needs to roll back to doctors giving a better education at time of dx.  If I hadn't come to a support board soon after dx, I might not have become as vigilant and educated.  We got our first epi pen prescription in the ER.  The doctor wrote an epi prescription, showed me how to use one, said avoid peanuts and sent me on my way.

Similar scenario when we followed up with allergist.  (this was 11 or so years ago).
I do know that both times we visited Dr. Sicherer, he asked to see our epi pen, had us demonstrate with a trainer, asked a couple questions about lifestyle etc.  In a non threatening/easy friendly way. 
More doctors should do that IMHO. 
Wondering if epi pens are under prescribed or not refilled ?
or is all of this a Branding campaign?  afterall, Epi--pen is sort of like Kleenex, Xerox but maybe they are worried that new devices will be considered so they need to keep the brand alive?
totally rambling now.  sorry


 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Carefulmom on April 21, 2012, 01:03:45 PM
Carefulmom, I assumed that that's what they meant.  But it is hardly clear from the commercial (unless it was in the fine print at the bottom that I couldn't read), and not the conclusion that 99% of the viewers would come to.  Very, very damaging, IMHO.

I agree.  Someone outside the food allergy world would never guess that is what they meant.  And I don`t think that is what they meant.  I think the ad must have been written by some advertising person who spent a few minutes researching what an epipen is and was totally ignorant about food allergies.  Now that I have had a few hours to think about it, that is my take on it.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: SilverLining on April 21, 2012, 07:01:25 PM
Seriously, I think it's good that the commercial got pulled but I really don't feel like cheering about it. This might have actually helped moms who don't have Epi-Pens get Epi-Pens. Now they won't.

Kids without Epi-Pens. Yay.

It's a complicated issue. I hate how our community always makes it so black and white. You're either with "us" or you're not worth saving. I really don't see advocates stepping in and trying to reach these mothers and, as Mylan pointed out in their letter, there are a ton of them.

I don't think that ad would have convinced anyone not carrying an epi-pen for their child to get one.  I know two kids in my son's grade with pa (one is mfa).  Neither carry epi-pens, both allow their kids to eat may contains.  They both feel epi-pen is a great invention, and isn't it great it's so easy to give ....for kids that need it.  You know, kids like the one going to Max's birthday.

Neither would see that commercial and say "Wow!  What a great idea.  I should get one of them."

I have never lectured either of them on why they should do what I do.  Both know if their kids reactions get worse and they need or want help figuring out what's safe, etc., I'm willng to help. 

But, we haven't talked allergies in years.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: socks on a rooster on April 22, 2012, 12:07:55 AM
Just out of curiosity I did a google search on how to make people care about having diabetes. They are saying the same thing in those forums as we are here. How can I make so and so eat better when he knows he has this health issue? Why does he ignore all the medical advice? How can I make him care?

We all know this population exists. And, I doubt any slick marketing ploy's going to reach them. They simply don't believe_____ (fill in the blank). These people look at advocates sharing information like people peddling a strange cult, and they want nothing to do with it.

It's not illegal not to carry an epi pen, but if parents don't, have been given the proper instruction and consistently engage in risky behaviors, isn't it negligent parenting? How is it any different than letting toddlers swim unsupervised, or allowing young children to cross a busy street by themselves? If a child drowned in a pool and the parent said, "He always swam alone and it's always been fine....until today." We would be horrified. Everyone recognizes it is dangerous--except the parent. Just because the parent didn't believe the danger was real doesn't let them off the hook for acting negligently.



Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: booandbrimom on April 22, 2012, 08:32:28 AM
I don't think the comparison to diabetes is valid, because ignoring the disease can result in changes in the body over time. What burns our britches about these mothers is that their kids go swimming, have fun, and almost 100% of the time there are no consequences.

Will this disease ever be truly understood and respected as long as there's a huge number of parents who avoid precautions? Won't we always be seen as crazy as long as they're out there? Mylan's press release said 90% of parents don't carry an Epi-Pen!

If 90% are letting their kids swim and 10% are keeping them out of the water, who looks prudent and who looks crazy?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 22, 2012, 09:29:10 AM
the 90 percent figure is mind boggling. 
I wonder how many of those parents were never issued an epi pen prescription and how many have not refilled etc.
Does 90 percent of parents don't carry epi pen mean they have one, but its in the cabinet at home?

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: booandbrimom on April 22, 2012, 09:56:50 AM
My last blog post does have a link to a better study about moms who don't get prescriptions filled. HMO data is generally very reliable, as it crosses all types of people.

http://foodallergybitch.blogspot.com/2012/04/converting-slacker-allergy-moms.html

If we just keep hating on them, the perception of allergies will not change. Yet the community attitude most of the time seems to be "good riddance - they deserve what they get."

If we keep preaching to the choir, the choir gets anxiety disorders while the church remains empty.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: socks on a rooster on April 22, 2012, 10:17:55 AM
I don't hate anyone. I pity those people's children. It's like drunk drivers who are LUCKY most of the time, until the spectacular crash that kills someone. I most certainly do not admire them for getting away with it most of the time.

All anyone can do is provide accurate information to them, they have free will to accept or reject the information. If they have mental health issues preventing them from accepting reality I hope they get help. But, the ignorance is bliss method of management only pretends everything's normal.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 22, 2012, 11:21:07 AM
I also don't hate anyone.  I think that my ds leads a very normal life.
I have pretty much stopped advocating/educating some people in my life whose comfort zones/allergy management seems "risky". 
I have pretty well chalked it up to "I tried.  They don't get it.  Move on". 
I generally don't use "scare tactics", but I'll send an article once and awhile that discusses unpredictablity of reactions or a topic that pertains to their objections/justifications for their allergy management.
Sometimes I think it is like seatbelts.  It is PROVEN they help save lives, but still people don't wear them, still don't always make their children wear them.  Its a law that you have to wear one, but people still don't abide by it.
example of someone in my life.  her ds has a reaction at least once a month.  benadryl always works.  same symptoms, itchy mouth, a few hives, coughing, vomiting.  Every time the same.   I realized she thought anaphylaxis is throat closing and I sent her an article about when to use the epi pen.  Another reaction, she still didn't use it.   I sent her notes from my QA with allergist and he talked about using epi sooner than later and why.  Still didn't change anything.
After the child died from Subway, we talked about it in general.  Two months later, we were at a gathering and needed to kill some time.  we went to the mall food court and what did she feed her ds?  A sandwich from Subway.
she's smart.  she has medical people in her family.  she won't change their lifestyle one bit for the allergies though. 
I don't understand why though.
Every time I see a heartbroken parent saying "I didn't know"  I hope its the last one, but it never is.  That's what I don't understand
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 22, 2012, 11:32:32 AM
I think, having lived as a member of that community as well, that the comparisons with Type I diabetes ARE valid.
Most of those diabetics that prefer a more laissez-faire approach to management are "fine" for a long time.  They, too, THINK that they are choosing to "not let this thing get to me" or to "live my life anyway."

I think that the underlying psychology is quite similar.  It's a form of denial, in any case.  That part is comparable. But only to a point, because at least everyone diagnosed with Type I diabetes is actually impaired in terms of insulin production. 


The compounding factor here, IMO, is that some of that group really doesn't have the same disorder.  That is, thanks to bad diagnostic criteria, there are probably a fair number of people who are labeled as "FA" and even prescribed injectors-- who really do not have food allergies at all.  Then there are the majority of food allergic people who have relatively high thresholds in this mix, as well.

My DH has a very high threshold for walnuts.  <shrug>  Is he wrong to not carry epinephrine?  Probably not, realistically.  The odds of him actually ingesting enough to cause him to anaphylax are pretty much zero.  He's one of those people who can smell/taste the allergen and he knows the likely hidden sources well enough that he just avoids them completely unless he is 100% confident in the ingredients.   He's never actually anaphylaxed, in spite of his many allergies to a variety of things.  He may not have the genetic potential for it, in all honesty.  There's no diagnostic way, at least currently, to identify those people who are NEVER (well, probably never) going to anaphylax because their immune systems aren't made to do that.  (This is different than component testing a la peanut seed-storage proteins, btw.)

My DD and I are another story entirely; both of us have ample and robust anaphylaxis history.  We both carry epinephrine.

All three of us live in such a way that we're not taking excessive risk-- but DH appears almost unlimited, while I'm definitely more limited in my 'dining out' options, though not much otherwise... and DD is one of the people who looks "crazy" in terms of avoidance. 

Until the public is capable of understanding the nuanced picture that emerges just in looking at the three FA individuals in my own family, there will be problems in the way that the <1 to 5% of people who are/must be as careful as my DD are percieved.

Heck, physicians aren't always sure what to make of the three of us and the story that our anecdotal experience has to tell. 

Point being-- how many people in that HMO sample were diagnosed with a PA on the basis of a high RAST alone?  Does having an elevated RAST to peanut mean that they all NEED autoinjectors?  Probably not.  Estimates are that at least some percentage (20?  30?) of them aren't allergic at all to begin with, and that some other fraction have an allergy to one of the components that doesn't put them at risk of a systemic reaction... and then there are the people like my DH, who would have to literally EAT pb in order to really react.

It's a very complicated picture.  The only really clear thing is that kids who have already had very severe reactions or react to very small traces are likely to be at highest risk.  Beyond that, it's mostly speculation and the picture that emerges, mirage-like, shifts a little with every research study.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: lakeswimr on April 22, 2012, 04:45:25 PM
I think it is education.  I have met various students who had very wide 'comfort zones'.  I put that in quotes because it isn't a 'comfort zone' if it is based on ignorance IMO.  Several years later I have seen these same students with up to date 'comfort zones' (suddenly carrying epi pens and not eating baked goods from bakeries, now having good emergency plans, etc that they didn't have in the past.)  What changed?  They had serious anaphylaxis that scared them and their parents.  Ditto another mother I know personally.  When her child first reacted I suggested very gently she get epi pens 'just in case'.  One reaction where her child couldn't breath and turned partly blue later and she was a lot more educated and prepared.  Comfort zones differer but I have yet to meet someone who had a child have a *severe* reaction who wasn't trying very hard to not repeat that situation ever again WRT *food allergies*.

However, WRT stinging insect allergies I know plenty who are lax about carrying the epi, particularly if they live in the north where it isn't needed for a good chunk of time each year.  My father hasn't had severe anaphylaxis in over 30 years and is so lax.  I get on his case to carry his epi pens.  One time my brother told me he left epi pens that had long since expired (as in maybe a decade old) in the fridge at my brother's house, 'to keep them save'.  He retains almost nothing of what I say to him about this.  I gave up and focus on having my mother carry for him.  I got stung at their house not that long ago so it isn't impossible.  Luckily he lives in a city with good ambulance service and hospitals close by.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: YouKnowWho on April 22, 2012, 08:18:49 PM
If they want to focus on those that don't carry - wouldn't it be better to contact those on our "In Memory Thread" and showcase them.

Remind those who think Benadryl will be fine, it's never been serious before, their doctor said they don't need one, they are expensive, etc.

Those are the people they want to reach.

Those are not the parents who won't go to birthday parties because they don't have an epi pen, kwim?
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: YouKnowWho on April 22, 2012, 08:25:15 PM
This is the ad they need to make
Our Children Matter
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 22, 2012, 08:33:42 PM
I'm not sure.  I think that Boo's point here is worth considering.

I think that emphasizing the "death" part of things to the parents who are deep in denial tends to just push them further from being able to wrestle that baggage to the ground and come to grips with what, is, when you get right down to it, a VERY frightening thing-- your own child's mortality.

Scaring them further isn't doing it.  That scares them SO much that they'll do pretty much anything to just not think about it-- including not processing anything associated with food allergy as it might apply to themselves.

You can see this in some people-- you can watch them tune you out when it gets too unpleasant for them.  It's as though their brains shut off.  Like an absense seizure or something. 

Those are the people that need to be reached.  They need to somehow internally recognize a message that whispers... "Hmm, maybe this DOES apply to me... I should think about this some more..."

 I'm just not sure that scaring them is working.   :-/
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: lakeswimr on April 22, 2012, 08:53:33 PM
I'm not sure, CM, but I know that many who don't carry are doing so because they lack proper info.  many of the quotes of people who lose loved ones say almost the same thing, 'we didn't know', 'no one told us', 'we thought the past reactions were minor', etc.  I think that's the bigger issue IMO than people who know and choose not to carry.  I would bet almost all who don't carry lack proper info and proper info is scary so I'm not sure we can dance around the facts. The facts don't have to be slammed in someone's face, but they are the facts still and must be known for someone to truly understand why carrying always is important.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: lakeswimr on April 22, 2012, 09:42:58 PM
I guess I am not thinking of this as a case of 'slacker moms'.  the idea I'm reading in  Boo's very well-written blog is that 90% of parents of kids with ana are 'slackers' who have all the same info we have and are just slackers so don't carry the epi.  I don't think that's it.  I do not think most are 'slackers'.  I think most have not had their doctors make things clear to them.  We know pediatricians and general docs and ENTs, GI docs, etc often do not give proper info to patients and even allergists who do not specialize in FAs don't always give the correct info.  heck, even TOP allergists don't always have TIME to give as much info as patients need.  I think most of these parents lack info, not the will to protect their children.  And who gives the info is important--carries a lot more weight when it comes from a doctor than us. 

I see people who post advice to others and they say the same things I say but in a much more effective way and I think there is really something to that.  I would love to be able to present ideas as eloquently as they do.  I'm more of a blunt typer on the internet (not very blunt IRL, though--IRL personality pretty different than online because of the whole difference between talking/typing.)  I do think Boos point of HOW we make our points is important.  I think pussy footing around the facts to the extent the add did is not helpful.  I do not think it would have an overall net gain of people getting proper treatment.  I could be wrong, though.  Boo's posts and blog are very interesting.  I think it is maybe the best blog I have seen so far on FAs.  :)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: socks on a rooster on April 22, 2012, 11:30:31 PM
Yes, physicians do need to do a better job of prescribing and educating parents how to use epi pens. It's fairly easy though to tell in conversation when a parent doesn't have the information, and when one actively resists the information. 

I know someone who watched her child turn blue as a toddler and she sends her elementary aged child to amusement parks without an epi pen. This is someone with a medical background who has the information. I agree with CM, it is abject denial based on fear.



Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 23, 2012, 05:29:28 AM
I agree that trying to scare people doesn't seem to work. 
"my son has mild allergies",  "benadryl always works", etc. 
I definitely don't think people believe it could ever be "them".
I really think it has to be coming from the medical community upon dx.  Carry your epi pen at all times....a walk to the park, at friends houses, etc. even if you don't plan on eating anything.  here's how it works with a demonstration etc.  tell them when to use it etc.
followed by an allergy plan etc. 

I really think that a more direct ad plan giving statistics xx percent of people diagnosed with fa don't carry their epi pens.  explain the importance (allergies are unpredictable, etc)

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: lakeswimr on April 23, 2012, 07:52:28 AM
That's scary, Socks.  That kind of person blows my mind.  But I still wonder if they were adequately told what they should be doing.  Yes, they should know but we all see that having an MD doesn't = knows how to handle FAs.  I know a person who sends her child to non-food events without epis. The child has had severe reactions.  I once saw the child eating candy at a non-food event given to him by someone!  However, this person does not have a good allergist due to insurance coverage.  So, she has not had the same type of medical care others with better allergists have had and I know this allergist tells people benadryl can stop ana and other misinformation. 

I think there is a serious lack of correct information and so the idea of patting people on the back who lack correct info and not wanting to scare them with actual correct info (not that Boo is saying that but it could be taken to that extreme) scares me.  If anything I think these people need much more info, not less.  Yeah, we should try not to scare them in the process and try to make them feel empowered but we shouldn't shy away from the facts while doing this.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Mfamom on April 23, 2012, 08:00:16 AM
I think the root of the problem is "what is the correct information?"  Lots of different opinions about necessary lifestyle modifications, some doctors are onboard with avoiding may contains, others not.  Some doctors may still say benadryl first, epi pen if additional symptoms start, others say epi sooner than later.  There isn't a standard.
As CM said, people have different tolerance levels as well.  for the people who "think" that benadryl resolved the reaction (most are self resolving), what will change their mind that a different action might be better?

I think that there needs to be some sort of "standard" set for initial education etc.  At a minimum, stressing the benefits of always being prepared with epi pen, how to use it and when to use it. 

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: lakeswimr on April 23, 2012, 09:16:41 AM
There is still some basic agreement. There NIH came out with guidelines which eliminate a lot of possible arguments.

I think there is a basic level of info doctors should give but many do not know to give such as that the epis should always be carried, the person should always be with someone who knows the signs of ana, the emergency plan and how to use the epi pen.  The person should receive a clear, written, emergency plan at least somewhat similar to the plans put out by FAAN, FAIII (sp?), Dr. Wood, etc.  Avoid may contains already is mainstream advice recommended by all food allergy organizations, etc. The fact that some allergists do not recommend it doesn't change this. There are some exceptions such as my son who can eat some forms of milk and can now eat some things that say, 'may contain milk' but this is *general* advice.  Avoid bakery food if allergic to milk, eggs, nuts.  Avoid Asian food with a peanut, nut, sesame allergy, etc etc.  Read every ingredient label every time.  Call companies if have non-top 8 or if want to be sure no x-contam since x-contam labeling is voluntary.  The need for and how to be careful at restaurants., etc. Past reactions do not determine future ones and reactions can change.  Hives upon ingestion = possible future anaphylaxis and reason to carry epi. 

People shouldn't be dying because they  didn't know Chinese food was risky with a peanut allergy, that their past reactions when they 'just got hives and some minor breathing trouble' meant they should have and use epi pens, because they waited to long to epi, because they thought epi was dangerous, because they didn't know bakery cakes had risk, etc, etc. 

I think there already is a pretty set standard of info that if we look at FAAN's website and books sold there and those at kids w FAS and FAIIII (sp?), Ana Canada, etc, will all agree upon 98% of the time. So, saying there isn't full agreement is not really true.  There isn't ever going to be full agreement but there are basic recommendations that aren't making it to pediatricians and ENTs and GI docs and even some allergists and are not making it to all parents of food allergic kids and adults with FAs.  Most people at kids w fas have stories of it taking multiple doctors before getting a proper diagnosis and correct info.  I went through 3 doctors including one allergist before the 4th doctor finally gave us the correct diagnosis.  I was working hard, reading, asking all the right questions, researching, and got bad and incorrect info from those 3 doctors and many books, etc.  It wasn't for my lack of effort. 
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 23, 2012, 10:27:44 AM
There have only been good practice parameters for Food Allergy within the last few years, though.  Mfamom is correct-- this hasn't been part of most allergist's training in the past, nevermind that of general practitioners.

However, with that said, we've had two different allergists (including the current one) use us (with our permission) as poster children for what GOOD DAILY MANAGEMENT should look like.  That is, avoidance, planning, and continuous access to the emergency failsafes.

I've seen those allergists' frustration that even my DD's history and all the prodding in the world from the allergist... don't get through to those parents (and to be clear, we're talking about people who work in the medical profession and should really know better).

THEY DON'T WANT TO KNOW.  Truly.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: lakeswimr on April 23, 2012, 10:52:17 AM
I just have not seen as many of those types.  I usually see people who haven't gotten the right info in the first place.  But there could be a lot of people like you describe as well.  I really can't understand them at all.  You think it is that they don't want it to be real so they bury it in their minds?  I think medical people often seem to think they know things about FAs they do not.  I think it can give some a false sense of, 'oh, I already know that' so they may be more likely to have a gap in knowledge than those of us more open to learning. 

These things may not have been part of allergist's training but anyone in the field has a professional obligation to keep up with the field.  I had to switch pediatricians because our old one hadn't kept up with the field since, oh, the 80s!  Allergists should read journals, attend conferences, and stay up to date as they can.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: hezzier on April 23, 2012, 11:24:19 AM
I think it has be a combination of both types.  After DS had his first reaction, we followed up with a pediatrician (did not care for him and he had a nut allergy) and gave us a prescription for the epi.  Did not think we need to see the allergist.  I left dumbfounded by the whole appt, he rough-housed with DS the whole time so it was very hard to have a discussion with him.  When I got home, I called and left a msg for our reg ped and asked for a referral to an allergist.  And our first allergist gave us some bad advice (not about epis, but about taking sesame out of DS's diet with no known reactions).  I didn't find out that this was bad info until months later when I asked a question of an allergist at an allergy information fair.

So some who don't get the right info the first time, may not know to keep pushing.

I also think some have their head buried in the sand.



Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Momcat on April 23, 2012, 12:54:47 PM
http://blogs.babycenter.com/community_buzz/04232012-epipen-ad-pulled-after-parents-protest/
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 23, 2012, 03:38:44 PM
The response I received from FAAN today:

Hi Amy,

How are you? Thank you for email last Wed.  FAAN was communicating with Mylan all last week regarding the commercial and took concerns very seriously.  I’m not sure if you saw FAAN’s official response on Friday, but I’ve copied it below for you to read.

The Food Allergy & Anaphylaxis Network (FAAN) and the Food Allergy Initiative (FAI) are pleased that Mylan Specialty has decided to immediately discontinue its controversial EpiPen® television ad (‘’Max’s Birthday’’). A small number of these TV ads may run over the next few days because of unavoidable scheduling issues.
 
Mylan Specialty’s decision followed discussions with FAAN, FAI, and other leaders within the food allergy community, who expressed concern the ad did not convey that strict avoidance of food allergens must be the first line of defense in preventing a food allergic reaction. While epinephrine auto-injectors can be life-saving in the event of a severe reaction, every effort must first be made to avoid this medical emergency. The simple fact is that until we find a cure, strict avoidance of problem foods is the only way to prevent a potentially fatal reaction.
 
From our conversations with Mylan Specialty, it is our understanding future EpiPen campaigns will clearly communicate this crucial information, as they have in the past, and both FAAN and FAI have offered assistance to avoid future issues. We look forward to our continued cooperation and discussions with Mylan Specialty based on our shared commitment to the food allergy community and to building awareness of the seriousness of food allergies.
 
 

Please let me know if you have any further questions at all.  I hope you had a great weekend!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: GoingNuts on April 23, 2012, 03:40:50 PM
Wow Momcat, so nice to see supportive comments for a change!
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: booandbrimom on April 23, 2012, 03:42:09 PM
Boo's posts and blog are very interesting.  I think it is maybe the best blog I have seen so far on FAs.  :)

Oh man! High praise indeed.  :smooch: (Seriously...thank you.)

I do not think all these people are uneducated. I do not think they are all in denial. I do not think all their kids have only had mild reactions. There are just some moms who are unmotivated by fear, or who are motivated by social concerns that are stronger than the fear.

I think they are playing the odds. Yes, kids can die from food allergies but very few do. Thank God! But that's the reality. They can almost always not carry an Epi-Pen and their kid will either have a mild reaction that requires only Benedryl OR the ambulance will get there in time.

There's a social cost and a stigma from allergies. Allergic kids are not cool. Allergic moms have a not-great reputation of sometimes being over the top. Allergies lead to teasing and exclusion. If a mother could avoid all that and the risk of death was very low (and it is), I can see why she might want to. Apparently a good percentage of them want to.

The mom in the commercial was very cool. Young. Skinny. Nice make-up, clothes, jewelry. Looked like an SUV. Max/Jake popular boys names. All the cool trappings were there.

Remember how many people refused to wear seat belts? For some of us, the fear of accidents was great and wearing a seat belt was always a no-brainer. For others, it was uncool and they probably weren't going to be in an accident anyway, right? It took a law to get (mostly) compliance.

There are always glass-half-full people and glass-half-empty people when it comes to risk. You have to market completely differently to the two groups. It's unfortunate that there are virtually no other marketing efforts to this other group because, as long as the percentage of them is so high, people will continue to believe we overreact, rather than that they under-react. Showing them the news stories of dead kids would make no difference. The news channel does that every night. They're aren't wired to personalize it.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 23, 2012, 04:57:49 PM
Right-- their brains automatically go to "Oh, that is for those people.  Not me."

It's a weird diversionary loop in their thinking.  I've seen it happen with my own two eyes, and it's really an amazing thing to see in action. 

It's this strange thing that is the opposite of catastrophizing, which is what the over-the-top (okay, probably borderline mentally-ill) parents do on the other end of the spectrum.  Those are the parents who have never seen their child have a reaction-- ANY reaction-- to anything-- but "just to be sure" have them blood-tested with a "panel" of allergens... and carry autoinjectors (multiples) for those "found" allergies, call every manufacturer, make it their mission to have all of the child's putative allergens removed from play-groups, daycare, preschool, etc...

I'm not sure which of those two groups is in more need of intervention, nevermind which one is more resistant to it. 

Both are cognitive distortions in some respects, but both will always result in anecdotal evidence to support the beliefs, as well.  In the first group, the odds are in their favor anyway for never having it happen to them, and in the second, well, minimizing risk may be a game of diminishing returns, but by golly, they. are. SAFE-SAFE-SAFE.

This is like the golfer that shrugs at weather warnings and says (rightly) "I've been playing through thunderstorms for YEARS and I've never been struck by lightning. Why WORRY??"

as compared to most golfers who say; "It's a low risk, but it's not worth taking."

Then there is an admittedly tiny group that avoids golf courses entirely and refuses to wear anything containinig metal as a means of avoiding being struck by lightning.  Rational?  Well, probably not.  But they can certainly claim that they are keeping themselves safe from harm, and the evidence speaks for itself.  They haven't been struck by lightning, right?

The real question to ask ourselves is...

where do we PERSONALLY fall on that spectrum?  I'm pretty confident in saying that I'm not so risk averse that I'm playing golf with wooden golf clubs, YK?  But I'm also not playing in FL during severe weather and congratulating myself on the great tee time availability.  LOL.   Okay, probably not the most awesome analogy at some point, here, but you get the idea.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on April 23, 2012, 05:05:05 PM
I do think that a first step is to more honestly address the questions about risk-benefit in a way that doesn't dismiss the value of normalcy in contributing greatly to quality of life.

There are some people who really can live nearly normally-- and maybe they should.  Maybe those of us with greater sensitivity or more ubiquitous allergens need to live a more restrictive kind of lifestyle, but maybe it also isn't for us to say that everyone has to manage food allergies that way, YK?

I think this point is particularly important in light of recent research developments that suggest rather strongly that strict avoidance (beyond that needed to avoid major reactions, I mean) is probably more harmful than beneficial in terms of kids outgrowing or having diminishing sensitivity.

An honest acknowlegement that risk profiles differ substantially between individuals is probably a great first step to making room for everyone to live openly with food allergies.  If we remove the "crazy" stigma associated with those epipens, maybe more COOL moms would be okay with keeping one around, YK?


This ad in particular was a pretty ham-fisted attempt in that direction, I think.  But the ideas behind that aren't necessarily a bad thing.  I don't mind at all if someone ASKS me just what "food allergies" means in my particular circumstances.  I'm guessing that CoolMom wouldn't mind that either.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: rainbow on April 23, 2012, 07:56:24 PM


I do not think all these people are uneducated. I do not think they are all in denial. I do not think all their kids have only had mild reactions. There are just some moms who are unmotivated by fear, or who are motivated by social concerns that are stronger than the fear.

I think they are playing the odds. Yes, kids can die from food allergies but very few do. Thank God! But that's the reality. They can almost always not carry an Epi-Pen and their kid will either have a mild reaction that requires only Benedryl OR the ambulance will get there in time.

There's a social cost and a stigma from allergies. Allergic kids are not cool. Allergic moms have a not-great reputation of sometimes being over the top. Allergies lead to teasing and exclusion. If a mother could avoid all that and the risk of death was very low (and it is), I can see why she might want to. Apparently a good percentage of them want to.

The mom in the commercial was very cool. Young. Skinny. Nice make-up, clothes, jewelry. Looked like an SUV. Max/Jake popular boys names. All the cool trappings were there.


Yep.  All this exactly!!

(and welcome back boo!)
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: rainbow on April 23, 2012, 08:07:54 PM
Wow...I didn't see the ad and just caught up on this.  The link doesn't work now that the ad is pulled - anyone know how to see it?
Totally irresponsible...and in my years dealing with anaphylactic food allergies, I've had many people say to me, "But the Epipen will just work right!".  They don't seem to understand that if it is at that point, it is extremely serious and in fact, it doesn't always work!   So, no, it is NOT safe to just eat that Birthday Cake with "who knows what" in it!!  (although, they are right that many allergy kids do, and w/out Epipens, but the tone of their ad was encouraging it as long as the child had the Epipen).

FYI, to those not understanding the Type I diabetes situation...kids (and adults) with the most severe form are often on an insulin pump 24x7.  The pump (which controls insulin flow directly into veins thru a catheter - a needle in the vein all the time just like an IV) when the child eats extra carbs (e.g., a cupcake or candy bar, or extra piece of fruit, or extra bread - all high carb foods).  If the child goes without insulin, the child will go into insulin shock and die if the insulin is not given in time.  It IS extremely serious.  And, they are dealing with constantly watching intake and adjusting a constant flow of medication (insulin), day in and day out.  My friend's child was on the pump since he was THREE when his body suddenly stopped producing insulin and he went into shock and almost died (he is 6 now).  These kids go to the school nurse constantly for help in adjusting insulin, checking blood sugar (which they must do several times a day by pricking their finger), etc.  Others not on the pump likely require a shot from the school nurse after lunch.  These kids do not have it easy -- it affects daily quality of life and carries risk of death if not properly managed -- and we need to be compassionate toward that community too.   

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: rainbow on April 23, 2012, 08:11:45 PM
x
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: twinturbo on January 24, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Mylan settles deceptive ad charges involving EpiPen

Quote
"Mylan was extremely irresponsible to suggest to parents that EpiPen is a substitute for vigilantly avoiding their children's allergens," said Attorney General Ellen Rosenblum of Oregon, which also will get $250,000.

Mylan denied any wrongdoing, the Oregon attorney general's office said.

Mylan did not respond to an email Friday seeking comment.

New York City-based Pfizer, which received a warning letter about the ad campaign from the FDA, agreed to pay $375,000 to Massachusetts to settle the deceptive ad charges. Last year, it agreed to pay Oregon $1 million.


So.

Where's my money? And  :thumbsup: state AG you rock and you know it.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: Macabre on January 24, 2014, 10:25:21 AM
You may wand to make that

[url=http://blah blah
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: LinksEtc on January 24, 2014, 12:00:40 PM
I don't know ... they already got slapped on the wrist by FDA (which I think was good)... but states getting this much $ out of this thing (which probably wasn't even intentional) seems a bit overboard ...  just my opinion.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on January 24, 2014, 12:04:07 PM
Well, except that probably they can argue that the stress on public-health services from people following the (seeming) advice in this ad...

well, you see where I'm going with that one, right?

Sure it sells devices, but is also promoting their USE, basically, by advocating poor management.  Which means emergency room use, too.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: twinturbo on January 24, 2014, 12:32:09 PM
Here's the release from state DOJ. AG Rosenblum understands avoidance and epinephrine well. Almost a little too well to not have some personal background in it.

Quote
MISLEADING EPIPEN ADVERTISEMENTS LEAD TO SETTLEMENT

November 7, 2013

Attorney General Ellen F. Rosenblum announced today that pharmaceutical company Mylan Specialty L.P. has agreed to submit any new television commercials for EpiPen and EpiPen Jr. to the Food and Drug Administration before airing them to consumers. Mylan further agrees to address any material FDA comments about the submitted advertisements, and to provide notice to the Oregon Department of Justice if FDA does not comment on the materials.

Today’s agreement also requires Mylan to pay $250,000 to the State of Oregon. Mylan denies wrongdoing.

The settlement concludes DOJ actions taken in response to a national television advertisement that promoted EpiPen products. Attorney General Rosenblum alleges that the commercial wrongly suggested that parents who were “prepared with EpiPen” did not need to worry about letting their allergic children eat food with unknown ingredients.
 
“Severe food allergies are a potentially fatal health risk,” said Attorney General Rosenblum. “Epinephrine injections can save lives in emergencies, but Mylan was extremely irresponsible to suggest to parents that EpiPen is a substitute for vigilantly avoiding their children’s allergens. Our resolution of this case ensures that consumers will understand the limitations of EpiPen as well as its approved uses.”

In December of 2012, Pfizer, Inc. agreed to pay Oregon $1 million over Pfizer’s role in the same advertising campaign. Although Pfizer and Mylan had marketed EpiPen jointly, Mylan subsequently obtained Pfizer’s interests in EpiPen products in the United States.
 
Following the Pfizer settlement, Oregon DOJ learned that the office of Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley was conducting a related investigation regarding Mylan. Attorney General Rosenblum thanks Assistant AG David Hart for coordinating with his colleagues in Massachusetts to achieve this excellent result for Oregonians.

Quote
Pfizer Inc. and Mylan Specialty LP reached settlements with the State Attorney General of Massachusetts related to a 60-second TV commercial that ran in April 2012 for EpiPen.  The state alleged that the commercial violated a 2008 consumer protection settlement because it misled consumers into believing that carrying the self-administered epinephrine injector alone was sufficient to protect against life-threatening reactions.  Pfizer as the EpiPen manufacturer agreed to pay $375,000 and Mylan as the exclusive licensee agreed to pay $250,000.  Pfizer also agreed to extend the term of its consumer protection settlement an additional 18 months for ads that run in Massachusetts.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: LinksEtc on January 24, 2014, 12:55:10 PM
Well, except that probably they can argue that the stress on public-health services from people following the (seeming) advice in this ad...

well, you see where I'm going with that one, right?

Sure it sells devices, but is also promoting their USE, basically, by advocating poor management.  Which means emergency room use, too.


Yeah, sure, I can see the argument ... I personally would have left it alone once the lesson was learned (as provided by FDA & the allergy community) ... but that's just me.  I can't say for sure, but I doubt the ad directly caused an increase in reactions.  Just my opinion <shrug>.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on January 24, 2014, 01:00:13 PM
Oh, I doubt it too-- and the amount of the monetary award actually paid out seems WAY excessive to me...

but the publicity is a very good thing in the wake of the ad, and that's the ultimate benefit there.  That is, neither state could really afford to mount a national campaign that would have the visibility to debunk the original ad, but the media picking up the settlement-- and esp. AG Rosenblum's statements-- accomplishes almost as much in the end.

Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: twinturbo on January 24, 2014, 01:10:16 PM
Forceful correction documented in the public eye treated with equal weight as any other medical consumer protection is far, FAR more valuable than any monetary amount but that it did include a slight damage amount as it would for virtually any other breach is important in the sense it wasn't treated any more or any less. Just saying what I appreciated about it. It makes me want to hug kittens and throw daisies in the air.
Title: Re: New EpiPen TV ad . . .
Post by: CMdeux on January 24, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
 :yes:


And let me just add that the image that created in my head made me smile.   ;D