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Title: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: GoingNuts on January 31, 2013, 08:06:45 PM
I know how some of y'all feel about FARE, but this is an opportunity for us to weigh in on an important topic to our community.

From FARE email today:

As you may know, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration is seeking public comment on two matters of great importance to our community. Both of these issues directly speak to how food is labeled for the presence of allergens. First, the FDA is seeking to determine whether it can safely establish threshold levels for major food allergens. Secondly and separately, the FDA is seeking public comment on its proposed rule – required by the Food Safety Modernization Act – on preventive controls (including food allergen controls) within the food manufacturing industry. FARE has convened a working group comprising food allergy parents, allergists and researchers to help inform FARE’s response to the FDA on both of these issues.
It is important to us to hear from members of the community on these issues, so we have created a survey to help us get your input. The survey takes about 5-10 minutes to complete and includes questions about the food allergies you are managing, your current behaviors with respect to food labeling and your knowledge about allergen thresholds.
The survey is available at this link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/C25NVH8
We hope you will take the time to provide us with your input. Please feel free to share the link and this email with your food allergy networks and support groups.
Thank you for your participation and for your support of FARE. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on January 31, 2013, 09:18:01 PM
DONE.

And I doubt that they are going to like what I said, but I said it anyway.

And I gave them enough information that they SHOULD find it difficult to ignore it, since I was quite open about variable thresholds for different allergens within our household.

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: ajasfolks2 on January 31, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
I muse . . . is this survey going to produce a false sense of security?


*sigh*


Or is it just me.   :disappointed:

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: GoingNuts on February 01, 2013, 06:53:01 AM
They probably didn't like what I had to say either.  Believe me.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on February 01, 2013, 08:04:03 AM
Edited - link was no longer working. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: gufyduck on February 01, 2013, 10:42:17 AM
Question #17: Would you purchase a food that contains the allergen(s) you are avoiding if you could be assured that the amount of that allergen present in the food is only capable of triggering a mild allergic reaction, such as tingly lips or an itchy throat?  :hiding: :banghead:
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 01, 2013, 10:45:55 AM
#15 was the one that I had the most trouble answering-- because we have three different FA people in our household, and seven different food allergies, and only two of those allergens are managed identically (peanut and treenut in my DD).

 :disappointed:

We KNOW that for her, cleaned lines are not always good enough. 

And "cleaned" is unpredictable, frankly.

I also included notes in my comments about "Limit of Detection" and "limit of determination" and sampling problems.  There IS NOT a method sufficient for all allergens in all foods for ALL allergic individuals.

IS. NOT.

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: PurpleCat on February 01, 2013, 03:35:04 PM
Done...but.....

This survey makes me nervous.  In my opinion, there is no "safe" amount.  I hope they tread carefully and make a good decision.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 01, 2013, 08:41:17 PM
This makes me nervous.  I told them so.  How are they going to guarantee anything?  How will they guarantee the allowed xcontam stays under this so called OK limit in the first place?  xcontam is not predictable, stable or constant by its nature.  I worry that just like FAAN's focus on the top 8 to the exclusion of the other 10% of FAs they may focus on whatever percent can eat some xcontam and the result might be very bad for everyone else. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 02, 2013, 07:51:58 PM
I wrote at length what I thought about all this in my blog...but to sum it up in a few sentences here: don't get hung up on the science, or the badly-worded survey questions, or other topics like non-top-8, and miss a real opportunity with this one.

Having a quantifiable level of protein declared by manufacturers gives us a legal protection we do not have today. I am still haunted by the story of the college kid who bought an vending-machine cookie and died from a subsequent reaction. When his parents sued the manufacturer, they lost...because the jury essentially said he should have known better than to have eaten the cookie, even though there was no declared peanut.

I worry that the food industry will use negative comments from the survey against us.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 02, 2013, 10:32:28 PM
I hear ya, Boo...

on the other hand, I struggle with the notion that the experts have a choice here-- they can get it "right" or they can get it "now" and the two things probably aren't the same thing.

The one probably saves lives by making it easier for 90% of FA people to trust labels and NOT take risks about thing that they think are just CYA (but don't know are)...

but it may also make it impossible for my DD to eat anything processed again without considering it a food challenge. 

I don't know what the right thing is, there.  Maybe it just isn't the same thing for all allergens.

My fear is that it isn't the same thing for the entire spectrum of triggering doses, and THAT is an almost insurmountable problem.  Freedom for the majority there comes at a price for the minority who are already most likely to die from unavoidable exposure.   :-[  They should have the same rights, too. 


With all due respect, I disagree with this:

Quote
Having a quantifiable level of protein declared by manufacturers gives us a legal protection we do not have today.

Maybe.  But it also STRIPS any rights below that quantified level and gives them a pass to LIE to us about shared lines, just the way Kraft has done to me for years.  We were burned by them with mild-to-moderate reactions so many times that we gave up on them entirely, remember?   I know that their jello and marshmallow products are on shared lines with treenut or peanut.  I know it... but they won't TELL me so. 

I worry that this says "we only care about the easily accomodated."  If it's a FIRST STEP, that's fine.  But I don't think that anyone ought to be pretending that this "solves" the larger problem if that is the case. 

A permissible threshold, whatever it turns out to be, IS going to present some problems for a small subset of allergic people, and "problems" there is a polite euphemism for dangerous and expensive, or deadly, accidental ingestions that send them to emergency rooms or morgues. 


I can easily see the defense saying "Yeah, but the food DOESN'T contain* the allergen.  Must have been 'idiopathic' anaphylaxis, then.  Not OUR fault... we clean and test our lines, so not possible."     :-/

* as defined by "the guideline."

So someone is still going to be 'eat at your own risk' anyway.  My problem with this is that the "someone" involved is already at the most restricted and vulnerable end of the spectrum. 

People like my DH and I find labeling Byzantine, illogical, and annoying in the extreme.  But we don't find it terrifying.  DD's allergies (and threshold) make it terrifying.  I don't see this changing that, since people like her supposedly don't exist.

The kinds of initial ingestions that get reported out of studies on desensitization?  Frankly, what they are reporting as an "average" tolerated dose boggles my mind when I consider what we know my DD's threshold to be.   If a threshold gets set at 100 mg-- or even 25 mg-- per serving... on the basis of the "fact" that the center of the tolerance distribution is at 250 mg (which it isn't-- this number is made up for the purposes of this post), and therefore "everyone" can tolerate 25mg without danger...

I think that is WRONG if it means that companies will no longer TELL us if something is on shared lines.  If they'll divulge it, great... but I'm skeptical, based on my experiences over the past decade. 

Would I rather that the food industry gave up?  Did nothing at all?  No, of course not.  But I think that at the moment, actually REPORTING a level of average contamination is beyond the scope of what is feasible.  And that is likely to be the best (eventual) answer for everyone involved. 

Think about that-- M&M's label... peanut tested at 40+/- 10 ppm.

Then people really COULD decide for themselves whether or not that was safe for themselves.  On the basis of actual INFORMATION.  Unfortunately, without knowing what the actual limit of detection is, it doesn't do any good to say it's "below the limit of detection."  Because hey, if my "method" of determination is..... visual?  That's whole peanuts per serving.  If it's by... LICKING the sample... it's still probably a couple of peanuts per serving, and it's going to vary depending on how spicy or cold the food is when I taste test.  Is it 'safe' if I say it's below my limit of detection?

Maybe for someone it is.  But for a lot of someone elses, it certainly is not.   :-/

Sorry.  I don't think that is "getting lost in the science."  I think that this particular science isn't yet up to this particular task, and pretending that it is is dangerous for some food allergic persons.      I want to believe.  I do.  But I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me that anything good is going to come of this for people like my DD.  I'm worried for those people. 

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 09:28:03 AM
I do completely understand your point that an arbitrary threshold would not be a safe threshold for every individual. But why does that mean we shouldn't push to have thresholds quantified in the first place? I would so much rather know "average peanut content <1 mg" than "made in a factory that also processes peanut." The first statement gives me much more information than the second. What I DO with it is up to me.

There is also a difference between saying "this food has <1 mg peanut" and saying "this food is safe for all peanut individuals." I understand how you think one might morph into the other, but they are not the same.

I guess I just don't see it as somehow picking on the weakest in our community. I see it simply as information. Not perfect information, not completely useful information, but information. Better than what we have today.

Unless you buy into the likely food-industry argument that these labels will likely just scare consumers away from peanut-containing foods they're already safely eating? 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 09:32:13 AM
http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/06/29/how_many_insect_parts_and_rodent_hairs_are_allowed_in_your_food.htm

Just sayin'...do we really think we're just better off shutting our eyes and singing "la la LA I can't HEAR you" about peanut that's already in food?
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 10:54:38 AM

There is also a difference between saying "this food has <1 mg peanut" and saying "this food is safe for all peanut individuals." I understand how you think one might morph into the other, but they are not the same.


The thing is, though, that is my fear.

I talk to our allergist all the time-- he's active in pursuing and keeping up with the research community, and he's "one of them" in that he's "in" that crowd and hangs out with them at meetings and keeps up with them...  so he knows stuff well ahead of presentation/publication, even.

There are things that simply aren't knowns.  Is it concentration?  Is it quantity?  Nobody knows.  Are all matrices the same?  Again, nobody knows.  As you know, this stuff has mattered to us as we've dosed with baked egg.  We're all just fumbling around in the dark, though.  We kind of know what seems to work for most people (which is what JHU passes our upon passing a full baked egg challenge), but what about those who don't start with that kind of tolerance?

Anyway.  Tangent.

The thing is, some of these people really believed that peanut OIL is completely safe for people with peanut allergy.  That was Taylor's standard line, and it's where FAAN (and most of the big name clinicians) got the info from.  He stopped saying that it "doesn't contain peanut protein" only after I challenged that.  Maybe it was coincidence and this was also about the same time as allergists began reporting patients who reacted to peanut oil.  I don't really know.

My point is just that history strongly suggests that food manufacturers AND the research community tend to not believe it until they have to believe it.  And you bet food manufacturers will argue that it isn't necessary to claim "< 1 mg" but they'll argue that this will be "misleading" and that since it MIGHT be "0mg" they should be perfectly justified in leaving it off and calling it "peanut free."  What will the research community have to say to them?  Probably not much.

 :-[

That's one sort of bad thing about all of the oral challenges that have been conducted in the past decade; the fact is that allergists probably used to believe that the average triggering dose was far higher than it actually is.  But until they begin evaluating thresholds via oral challenge for ANYONE diagnosed with a peanut allergy (or any other food allergy), then they only have part of the picture.    There's still that pesky 1%, or 0.5%, or however many there are... who have allergies that seem to resist desensitization, and be very low (<1mg) threshold.  So far, research studies have only hinted at the characteristics of that population.  The thing is, though, people who have a 2-4 peanut threshold almost don't need advisory labeling to start with.  <sigh>  Advisory labeling is about that 1% to start with.


Would I like all food to be tested for the top 10 and bear advisory labels indicating levels?  ABSOLUTELY.  Because I'm not so foolish (anymore) as to think that peanut is special there-- there ARE people who need that label for milk, soy, or sesame.

Is this practical?  No, probably not.

Is it even possible to do this with EVERY batch that rolls off of a production line?  (Kidding.  This is clearly not currently possible-- it would require robust in-line sensors, and while that kind of technology is theoretically possible, it's both expensive and non-robust at the moment).


Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 10:58:35 AM
As long as it is crystal clear that whatever action is taken, it's a FIRST step, not the whole journey, then I don't have a problem with it.

I just don't think that my fears (above) are unrealistic.  Pair mandatory advisory labeling with accepted threshold advice, sure... but also make disclosure to consumers MANDATORY if they call.  That way you close the loophole that leaves people like my DD twisting in the wind.  No more "that's a secret and we clean our lines, so go away."

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: SilverLining on February 03, 2013, 11:41:54 AM
As long as it is crystal clear that whatever action is taken, it's a FIRST step, not the whole journey, then I don't have a problem with it.

 :rofl:

Oh, you were being serious?  my apologies.

~~~

I'm not completely sure of what the plan here is.  labelling that says <1mg peanut protein ?  Or if it is <1mg, they don't want a may contain (which means obligation to put may contain if over 1mg?).

I don't want that <1mg to be considered equivalent to peanut free.  They are not equal IMO. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 11:42:33 AM
I understand there are concerns. I just hate to see those concerns derail something that might actually have had value to our community. Whether you would have used the information to avoid foods or include foods, a quantitative assessment had value. It would have been the start of holding manufacturers more accountable.

I use past tense because I am already pretty certain of how this will play out. The cost of this, the uncertainty of the science, and the fact that the food industry will use our own comments against us means this is probably DOA.

I hope I'm wrong. But frankly, I think it's another instance of us as a community not being able to hold two thoughts in our head at the same time. How do we square "no amount of peanut is safe" with "we're already eating some peanut in our food?" It's shameful that the industry uses our emotions against us, but I think they do and we let them.

If we don't measure, we don't know, and we can keep our illusion of a peanut-free world. Maybe (emotional) security really is more important than safety. No one wants to count the fly wings.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 12:07:04 PM
I'm much more cynical than that, even.

See, I think that this entire thing has ALWAYS been framed in such a way that there is no way for the food industry to have to DO anything differently...

because of the way that they've been asking the questions, see.

They don't WANT to monitor (at least most of them don't).  And they don't WANT to have to track production changes.

They don't.  General food safety fiascos and massive recall efforts should have shined a very bright light into that particular dark heart of the food manufacturing industry.  I don't understand why people WITHOUT food allergies aren't more peeved over that.

<shrug>

In other words, I'm pretty sure that this was never anything more than a set-up to start with.    I don't think its allergic consumers derailing this process, in other words.  I don't think it was genuine to begin with.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 12:33:08 PM
In other words, I'm pretty sure that this was never anything more than a set-up to start with.    I don't think its allergic consumers derailing this process, in other words.  I don't think it was genuine to begin with.

I agree (and wrote that in my blog). But my point was we didn't have to take the bait. I wish people would really think through what they want out of FARE instead of rejecting the (imperfect) process!

I wish we could agree as a community that it would be a good thing to measure the allergens in our food. That seems so *simple* to me. Why does it get derailed by crazy conversations about "any amount of allergen is too much" or "it can't be measured" or "thresholds change" or whatever? We spend so much time sniping at each other that there's never consensus. People are too wrapped up with which side of the line they're on (using these numbers to eliminate foods vs. include them) to see that the information would be useful, whichever side.

Where is the fricking outrage that a 21-year-old college kid died after eating cookies that were not labeled for peanut...and the court's response was to shrug and say "geez, he should have known he couldn't eat manufactured food." Why can't we just get behind this as a community, even if it's not perfect?
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 12:54:14 PM
I just don't have much hope on this front when even REGULAR consumers (that is, those who haven't been fried desensitized, if you'll pardon the phrase,  by years of dismissive/cavalier treatment by high-handed food manufacturers) can't get very angry at a company that can't even TRACK where it's sources come from in enough time to stop people from dying from pathogens.

(See "peanut butter contamination" parts I, II, and III... a recall effort that SHOULD have taken at most 72 hours with proper source-materials tracking took, instead, several MONTHS.  Months where people continued to unknowingly eat contaminated food that had been made with the tainted product.)


The FDA is so grossly understaffed and underfunded for such efforts that the foxes are minding the chicken coop and have been for many years.

We're a minority, and therefore, we're even LOWER priority than general consumers.  If nobody can muster enough concern to care about that peanut butter recall and what it signifies about our food processing industry standards, then I'm pretty confident that food allergic consumers are less than insignificant, our physicians and advocacy organizations aside.


I advocate trying, of course.  But I also disagree that it isn't helpful to point out the sheer scope of the problem that the FDA is looking at trying to solve.  Oh, sure-- it's pointing out that we don't have a horse donkey, on our way to tilt at the windmill.  Granted.  But it's a start, and since it's all tilting at windmills to begin with, I don't really see where there's a lot of harm.  I don't think that the FOOD INDUSTRY is listening either way.  So I figure that comments are directed not at them, but at the researchers and maybe the science/research arm of the Feds; they need to know what our concerns ARE, not what they think that they 'should be.'  Until they can get buy in from allergic consumers, they aren't going anywhere, and they won't get that by patting people on the head.

I'd point out that the survey did not ask "would it be a good idea to measure cross-contamination in foods?"

If it had, the answer would have been immediate and obvious.  Heck, even if they'd asked about what kind of cross-contamination (not labeling) would make consumers comfortable, THAT would have given useful information.

Here's what I think needs asking:

a) what kind of threshold are you living with? 

b) what evidence do you have to support that belief?

c) what kind of comfort zone do you have? (this was included on the survey)

d) what would you like for food labels to tell you that they currently don't?

e) in what ways does inadequate food labeling have an adverse impact on you/your family?

f) would you be okay with such an effort being voluntary, at least inititially?



Where I object to the surveys that I have seen thus far is that they don't really parse out the fact that there are WAY different groups here-- with vastly different needs.  The average allergic consumer finds labeling to be onerous because of a perception that advisories are merely CYA, and that "nobody" is "that sensitive" and that such labels force them to do one of two things:

i) ignore the warnings on the basis of past experience and hope for the best, or
ii) avoid the food-- probably unnecessarily.


I get that.  I get that improving labeling NOW would make life much, much, much better for those people.

Here's my problem with this, though--  if you take that group, make THEM happy, then they lose all motivation to improve labeling for the very tiny minority whose lives are still on the line.

We're a small enough minority as it is.  Who is going to listen to just 1% of the 5% in another ten years, hmmm?    That puts consumers like my DD in the position of needing an orphan drug, basically.  No leverage.  None.  So this gets back to (for me, anyway) a Faustian choice between making life "better" for the majority by reducing their stress and widening their horizons... or being selfish and saying "you know, this doesn't help us, and in fact, it introduces additional hubris into things which is likely to prove dangerous." 

We've been treated to some of that attitude in the past five years since so many challenges have shown higher thresholds.   Yep.  Right back to "but I know that you're LYING, because that isn't POSSIBLE..."  It's been disheartening.  In other words, the ONLY way that people believe my DD's threshold is when she proves it to them by reacting to the "impossible."   ~)
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 02:23:15 PM
Can they really say something like that?  Xcontam is not a stable thing.  It varies GREATLY.  I worry about any attempt to say a product only has such and such amount of allergen in it unless we are talking something like how Turtle Mountain does things. 

I do completely understand your point that an arbitrary threshold would not be a safe threshold for every individual. But why does that mean we shouldn't push to have thresholds quantified in the first place? I would so much rather know "average peanut content <1 mg" than "made in a factory that also processes peanut." The first statement gives me much more information than the second. What I DO with it is up to me.

There is also a difference between saying "this food has <1 mg peanut" and saying "this food is safe for all peanut individuals." I understand how you think one might morph into the other, but they are not the same.

I guess I just don't see it as somehow picking on the weakest in our community. I see it simply as information. Not perfect information, not completely useful information, but information. Better than what we have today.

Unless you buy into the likely food-industry argument that these labels will likely just scare consumers away from peanut-containing foods they're already safely eating?
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 02:35:55 PM
The only way to make such a statement is with statistics and a lot of data.

With in-line, REAL-TIME, CONTINUOUS monitoring, it's possible.  Because that is the way to know what "normal variance" looks like-- and whether or not there are ever serious deviations from that accepted tolerance range.

That can be done.  The pharmaceutical and hi-tech industries do that already.  It's not perfect, but it's damned close in critical manufacturing. 

I think it's also clear that it adds costs which would make it unbearable for all concerned in food manufacturing-- at least for now.    The science isn't there yet to make it truly feasible.



Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 02:36:01 PM
I'm not certain my son is eating allergens in his foods, though.  I call every company because DS had very serious reactions before I knew to call companies.  maybe he does have some xcontam but he has reacted to products that i was told should be safe and I called and got more info and so I think he is pretty darn sensitive to many of his allergens.  If he were eating them I think we would know it.  But you are right--he could have thresholds under which he won't react.

BUT, thresholds can and do change over time.  The longer one avoids the lower the threshold can become.  Also, there is the full bucket theory which seems to hold true for DS.  DS had ana at an event last year when he hadn't even eaten anything.  It was a contact ingestion reaction that must have come from touching residue and touching eyes, nose or mouth.  This happened a week after he had anaphylaxis due to xcontam on food he ate at a restaurant.  I think it is possible his body was on higher alert than usual and that normally he would not have reacted at that party.  I don't know, though. 

But I think the whole idea that there is a threshold that we can know is safe is risky.  My friend's son did desensitization and it was working and then he started reacting and then he started reacting to smaller and smaller amounts of peanut.  And the desnsitization failed after the kid was up to 1 peanut.  My son seemed to outgrow an allergy (passed a challenge) and was eating it at home and then started reacting and I tried smaller and smaller amounts and couldn't find any amount that worked.  What happened there? 

Dr. Wood describes having reacted from eating foods that had his allergen in it, avoiding his allergen, and then having a super severe (5 epi) reaction from xcontamed baked goods.  Eating baked goods containing the allergen hadn't caused nearly as big a reaction but he had those years of total avoidance in between so threshold went from relatively high to exquisitely low.

What I want to know is what is the point of this.  Is it motivated by the food industry or by the FDA's concerns for the FA community.  From talking to the FDA i really have had the feeling they have many people who truly 'get it' when it comes to FAs.  This was a very pleasant surprise.  So, I wonder what is the motivation.  At first I thought it was that we do not have standards when it comes to advisory labeling.  The FDA has cracked down on companies that use advisory labeling to CYA or in place of good cleaning practices.  They have seemed to be on our side.  But what is all this really about?  Does anyone here know the motivation for this survey?

I understand there are concerns. I just hate to see those concerns derail something that might actually have had value to our community. Whether you would have used the information to avoid foods or include foods, a quantitative assessment had value. It would have been the start of holding manufacturers more accountable.

I use past tense because I am already pretty certain of how this will play out. The cost of this, the uncertainty of the science, and the fact that the food industry will use our own comments against us means this is probably DOA.

I hope I'm wrong. But frankly, I think it's another instance of us as a community not being able to hold two thoughts in our head at the same time. How do we square "no amount of peanut is safe" with "we're already eating some peanut in our food?" It's shameful that the industry uses our emotions against us, but I think they do and we let them.

If we don't measure, we don't know, and we can keep our illusion of a peanut-free world. Maybe (emotional) security really is more important than safety. No one wants to count the fly wings.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 02:44:15 PM
I guess I don't fully trust FARE.  They are an improvement on the old FAAN but I want to speak my experience fully and truthfully on their survey NOT to derail anything but so that people like my son are considered in whatever they recommend.  Their whole '90% of all FAs are top 8' and ignoring all other allergens didn't serve me well.  I want whatever the try to push for to be something that takes into consideration the needs of the entire FA community.

The fact that thresholds can change is entirely relevant depending on how whatever they are doing with the FDA and food industry gets used. If what results is fewer warnings on labels and less access to info about possible xcontam that will be a very bad thing for ME.  I have to call or email every company to know if food is safe for my son.  I have a very hard time getting this info from some companies while others are fantastic.  I would hate to see an increase in difficult companies as a result of this (which I can easily imagine.)  I can't tell you how many times I have been told that they don't HAVE to tell me anything but whether their product contains a top 8 as mandated by the FDA and that they fulfill the FDA requirement and not a thing more.  MANY times.  I don't know if you deal with non top 8 but non top 8 requires hundreds of hours of time to even figure out what you can feed your child.  I don't trust companies as a whole even though some are fantastic and I feel nervous that my access to info may change negatively as a result of this.  I hope the opposite is true but as CM said, I'm not thinking there is even a chance that I will ever be able to just pick up a label and go from there to know if a food is safe or not without having contacted the company first. 

If I knew the objective of this then I could get behind it.  As things stand I feel nervous about it.  I know how to navigate packaged food products with my son's allergies as things stand now--contact companies and avoid those who wont' give me info.  If things change will I still be able to manage to know which foods are allergy-free for him or not?  I'm not sure of that so I worry. 

In other words, I'm pretty sure that this was never anything more than a set-up to start with.    I don't think its allergic consumers derailing this process, in other words.  I don't think it was genuine to begin with.

I agree (and wrote that in my blog). But my point was we didn't have to take the bait. I wish people would really think through what they want out of FARE instead of rejecting the (imperfect) process!

I wish we could agree as a community that it would be a good thing to measure the allergens in our food. That seems so *simple* to me. Why does it get derailed by crazy conversations about "any amount of allergen is too much" or "it can't be measured" or "thresholds change" or whatever? We spend so much time sniping at each other that there's never consensus. People are too wrapped up with which side of the line they're on (using these numbers to eliminate foods vs. include them) to see that the information would be useful, whichever side.

Where is the fricking outrage that a 21-year-old college kid died after eating cookies that were not labeled for peanut...and the court's response was to shrug and say "geez, he should have known he couldn't eat manufactured food." Why can't we just get behind this as a community, even if it's not perfect?
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: SilverLining on February 03, 2013, 02:44:48 PM
I use past tense because I am already pretty certain of how this will play out. The cost of this, the uncertainty of the science, and the fact that the food industry will use our own comments against us means this is probably DOA.

Until the science is there, the rest doesn't matter.  (And until costs are low enough that companies feel they can recoup those costs it's not gonna happen anyway.)
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 02:47:17 PM
CM, I like your list of questions!  :)  That survey would have made me less nervous than the one used. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 02:48:45 PM
Oh, I disagree with that, Silver.

I think that the science is being driven by demand and perceived needs.  The researchers don't all of them live food allergies day to day, and they aren't always very clued in to what those real needs/difficulties actually are.

So information and discussion is good.  I just don't think that we're at a point where any kind of united front is useful to anyone.

We're still at a point where there is a lot of question about what the "needs" actually are to begin with.  The bottom line is that MOST food allergic consumers are well enough served without advisory labeling, and including that labeling as made their lives more confusing and stressful.

But we can't forget that for a minority, simply exempting food below {threshold} from any need for an advisory is NOT a complete solution.  That will kill people.

I'd hate to look back at the passage of FALCPA's original provisions as a "golden age" of food safety for low-threshold consumers.  But I can see that happening if industry is allowed to unilaterally DECLARE what they consider to be "low enough that nobody can react to it."

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 02:53:09 PM
What would you like ideally?

I would like sesame to be covered under current labeling laws.  I think it should be already but FAAN's study found it didn't have the numbers in the US to be covered.  I have doubts about this.  I know FAAN knows how to do a study of that type but how can some top allergists claim sesame is more common than peanut, that it is the 4th most common or higher in their practice and have FAAN find the #s were so much lower?  (sigh) 

I would like when I call companies to be able to get info on the phone about shared equip.  I would like to know the following--is there a chance of x-contam with my son's allergens or not?  If they really don't know or can't possibly know I would like to feel they are acting in good faith and not just blowing us off.  Some companies are able to know this and tell us so why can't, oh, Hain Celestial?  You know?  I'd like to be treated politely no matter the situation.  That's what I would like.  I would like Hain  Celestial to HAVE to tell me whether their foods freaking CONTAIN sesame or not. They won't even tell me that.  How can I have any chance at knowing if their food is safe? 

Basically my main goals is this...

I would like to see an increase in companies that will give me the info I need to decide if a product is safe for my son. 

Anything that helps with that I will support fully.  How is this survey aimed at doing that?  I'm not seeing the link between this survey and me being able to get MORE info from these companies that will help me know.  I see a good chance of getting LESS info.  I hope I'm wrong about that. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 02:56:08 PM
What I worry is that we will be told only, 'the product is under the (whatever threshold deemed safe by the industry/FAIR/FDA)' and not get any info on shared equip, etc.  For those of us who are more sensitive we would be totally screwed.  Is there something I'm not seeing here?  This is also how I think CM sees things.  Am I right?
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
 :yes:

I would liked for a company like Kraft to HAVE to tell me "is this product produced on a line which is sharing production with a product containing peanut, or these tree nuts?"

Instead, they tell me that their food labels are "the most complete and up-to-date information" about their food, and that they can't tell me what I want to know.  That I should consult with my physician if I want more information about food safety.  And they just keep.repeating.it. 

   :insane: :paddle:
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
I can understand how you feel CM.  I know your child reacted to their stuff but they are one of the few companies that labels for sesame and treats it like a top 8.  DS has not ever reacted to their stuff so we use it.  If he ever reacts we will rethink this but right now we have been good with their stuff for over 8 years. 

Hain Celestial--I feel about them the way you do about Kraft, only they have been a lot ruder on the phone IMO. 

And one time White Wave reps actually YELLED at me to not use their product with DS rather than answer my questions, even if the answer was truly that they didn't know. 

I have had many a very nice experience or at least a polite person who couldn't/would't give me info, too. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: SilverLining on February 03, 2013, 03:06:15 PM
I would like sesame to be covered under current labeling laws.  I think it should be already but FAAN's study found it didn't have the numbers in the US to be covered.  I have doubts about this.

When Canada included sesame in the labelling manufacturers opposed it because the number of people with sesame allergy apparently didn't support it either.  However, because it has been proven (?) that sesame allergy tends to be anaphylactic more then other allergens (including peanut) and also,  anaphylaxis can be caused with smaller amounts of protein, it was included.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: SilverLining on February 03, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Quote
I think that the science is being driven by demand and perceived needs.  The researchers don't all of them live food allergies day to day, and they aren't always very clued in to what those real needs/difficulties actually are.

Until the science is behind it, it does not belong on a product label.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 03:18:00 PM
That's very interesting, SilverLining.  I always thought sesame had the #s in Canada so why don't we have similar numbers here.  If it doesn't have the numbers yet I think it will because more and more people seem to be dealing with it.  It is certainly on the rise.

I think that I can agree with Boo that it would be good to know if there is some amount under which no one will react.  But I question how that will be used by the industry.  Can they control xcontam that well?  Those that do spend a lot of extra effort and probably money like Turtle Mountain which batch tests for a bunch of allergens down to parts per million, etc.  If this increases the number of companies willing to do that, great.  But I don't think that will happen. 

I remember watching the Silk soy milk recall happen in slow motion on another board.  Someone reported their child reacted to it soon after my son started refusing it in any and all forms.  A bunch of others had also posted that their children would no longer drink it.  The person who had the child have a serious ana reaction called the company and was assured there could not be xcontam, they tested by batch or something, etc.  Not possible.  The person sent the sample for testing and it came back HIGHLY xcontamed.  The person meanwhile told the company, the still denied it was possible.  A second person had their child have ana, contact the company and get told the same stuff!  No possible, etc.  !!!  This is AFTER they knew the test results.  It took, I believe, several months for the recall to happen.  So, given stuff like that I'm not so sure I trust the industry.  What choice do we have?  Well, my choice is to be pretty picky which companies I trust based on talking with them. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on February 03, 2013, 03:38:44 PM
Lakeswimr, I also feel strongly that sesame should be labeled, but I don't think this threshold docket is the place for that effort.  FDA was very careful to say "major food allergens" in their wording ... Any non-top8 comments would be ignored for being outside the scope of this docket.



ETA these related links:

FDA to Assess Safe Food Allergen Levels

sesame seeds labeling: US specific (laws, loopholes)

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 03:48:43 PM
Thanks for pointing that out.  That just came out as OT as I was listing what I would like.  Hard not to add that in for wants for the future.  :)
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 04:38:52 PM

I think that I can agree with Boo that it would be good to know if there is some amount under which no one will react. 

I didn't actually say that. I do realize some people have very low thresholds and that there is no perfect threshold that truly protects everyone, other than 0%. Yes, there will be people who cannot safely eat foods that would be unlabeled in this new scheme. However, those people are no worse off than they are today, since cautionary labeling is completely voluntary.

What I said is that it would be a good thing to know the quantity of an allergen in foods, regardless of where people fall threshold-wise. Right now, we have no way of knowing if a product is made on a shared line, other than a) the manufacturer deigning to tell us, and/or b) a reaction. If manufacturers had to declare a range for their products, it would give us a proxy for whether products are done on shared lines.

Let's say a cookie you buy contains 20 mg of peanut from cross-contamination. Today, that cookie might say "may contain" on the label. Or, it might say NOTHING. The mfr. may not give you any information if you call. If manufacturers were required to test and batch label, that same cookie would have to say something like "peanut content may exceed 20 mg". If they test 20 batches over 20 days and even one of them comes up high, they would have to label it with the highest value. And that means greater safety, because our kids don't have to go through eating that cookie 19 times without a problem, and then have a reaction on the 20th time.   

I did not mean to imply the science was not ready to do this testing. Food labs in manufacturing facilities do this testing every day. This is not new technology. I was saying I understand people's frustration that every batch, every cookie, can't be tested. But that doesn't mean we should let perfect be the enemy of better.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: lakeswimr on February 03, 2013, 05:20:05 PM
OK, I think I better understand you know, Boo.  Thanks for explaining. 

I'm not sure it would be able to work the way you envision or even that that is the point of this survey.  I do not believe the FDA will mandate batch testing and the industry isn't going to volunteer to do it, either.  I think it would be a very once in a while thing and that is what worries me.  xcontam is not a constant so they can do occasional testing and get meaningless or worse, inaccurate results (likely IMO).  No info is better than wrong info.  Maybe I'm wrong but I can't picture all companies adopting batch testing. 

I would be worse off if this took the place of me being able to call and get info from the places that will give me info now.  I have places that I call and that say, "not required to give that info so we aren't going to give it" when I ask anything beyond what the law requires.  I can imagine this having a similar effect. 

Right now I have to call all companies anyway and that isn't going to change with this. 

People who are ultra sensitive could be worse off than they are today if companies hide what they are doing behind this new way of labeling. 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 05:47:38 PM
Quote
I did not mean to imply the science was not ready to do this testing. Food labs in manufacturing facilities do this testing every day. This is not new technology.

I'm suggesting that this MAY not necessarily be so.

There exist standard protocols in critical batch testing in any industry.  They are known to be matrix-limited, and to require validation (basically, big data) in any new application.

I fear that the science IS NOT actually ready, but that there are people who think that it is.

Foods are not a uniform matrix, and food allergen proteins will partition differently in different foods by virtue of their denaturation, temperature-related characteristics, and chemical behavior within the matrix.  That creates enormous sampling problems that the pharmaceutical industry basically doesn't have to manage in manufacturing.

Oh, sure, "protein" testing works pretty well.

But that isn't useful here-- because pretty much any food is going to come up positive...  so then you get into specificity assays, ALL of which have limitations, and different limitations/intereferents for different assays.

So even occasional line testing is still a job for someone with significant training and expertise if it's going to be accurate enough to mean anything, and you'll need to do it regularly (every 10 hours of run time on a line, for example) BEFORE you can say what it means. 

All for information that John Q. Public will neither appreciate nor (mostly) understand.   :-/

That kind of cost is NOT something that industry is going to absorb without being forced to do so.  They really don't have any reason to.

I mean, ask yourself this--

what is the difference between

20 mg

and


20 mg + or - 15 mg



Is one of those safer than the other?  Is one of them more informative than the other?  Would you be more willing to buy one over the other?  Why?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 05:58:23 PM
I know that I've said this kind of thing before, and it always sounds like schmaltz, I know...

but I'm really grateful that the science and public awareness and clinical research have come far enough that we can even HAVE this kind of conversation now.

It really wouldn't have been possible ten years ago.  So there has been progress!
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: ajasfolks2 on February 03, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
Amen, sista!!!

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 06:17:15 PM
I do not believe the FDA will mandate batch testing and the industry isn't going to volunteer to do it, either.  I think it would be a very once in a while thing and that is what worries me.  xcontam is not a constant so they can do occasional testing and get meaningless or worse, inaccurate results (likely IMO).  No info is better than wrong info.  Maybe I'm wrong but I can't picture all companies adopting batch testing. 


The reason this is all coming up now is something called the Food Safety Modernization Act. That act was motivated primarily by the peanut-butter deaths. (There's a certain irony in that benefiting the food-allergy community...)

The reason they are asking for input now is that the devil is in the details. The act calls for preventive controls (including food allergen controls) within the food manufacturing industry. However, how those should be implemented are open to interpretation. The food industry is fighting like crazy to have them be very minimal.

Here's the fact sheet:

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/FSMA/ucm334115.htm
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 03, 2013, 06:19:58 PM
This one has the research list if anyone is interested. Comprehensive overview of all literature that's been published on thresholds:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-01-16/html/2013-00125.htm

Sure cure for insomnia.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 03, 2013, 07:52:41 PM
Frankly, if they'd keep tracking information on SUPPLIERS, that would be a HUGE step in the right direction.

If they'd track production schedules (and supply streams and batch recipes INTO them), THAT would be a huge step in the right direction.


Both of those things would make for FAR more streamlined investigation and would make it actually possible for the FDA to begin doing the job of being real watchdogs.


Not coincidentally, it would also mean that there is no WAY that Lakeswimr or I could call a company and (truthfully) be told "we don't know."  SO maybe we should be asking for MANDATORY disclosure upon demand.  WRT allergens and processing, I mean.  I'd be very happy with that.  Do away with advisories entirely and let me call-- but MAKE manufacturers answer.

I feel like asking for allergen measurements at this point in time is...

well, it's like hoping to vanquish the windmill.   :misspeak:

Yeah, that threshold thing... I just get so discouraged when I read that literature.  Because it so systematically excludes the tails.  And that, really and truly, is where we NEED the most information.  That is, is someone who can "pass" a food challenge one day and still not really eat the allergen in unlimited fashion "allergic?"  Or do they get a different label?    There are people like my DH who are truly allergic but have no need to carry epinephrine because they have such a high threshold that the odds of them EVER having that kind of gross ingestion without being aware of it are.... well, improbable to the point of ridiculous.  But he's food allergic, too.  He counts.

But the only studies that have truly NOT excluded people on the "high risk" end of the scale, on the other hand, demonstrated that there may really be no safe level, or at least if there is, it's really low.  REALLY low. 


It's really hard to reconcile those two groups with the "average" experience of being food allergic. 




Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: ajasfolks2 on February 04, 2013, 03:42:30 PM
Related and interesting reading for some here, perhaps:

http://www.fda.gov/Food/LabelingNutrition/FoodAllergensLabeling/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/ucm106779.htm



http://www.fda.gov/Food/LabelingNutrition/FoodAllergensLabeling/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/ucm106042.htm
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: Macabre on February 05, 2013, 11:44:29 PM
Don't know if this has been posted yet:

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0091-6749/PIIS0091674912017022.pdf
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 06, 2013, 12:31:37 AM
Thanks!

The bottom line data in that one is in Table V of the paper-- basically, the ED's are not as solid as they'd need to be in order to base regulations on...

but what they say is that if you want to allow only 1% of the peanut allergic population to experience 95% 'safety' (that is, reaction-free eating of a contaminated food) then you need to be capable of detection BELOW the 0.1 mg per SERVING level.  Per SERVING.  Not per cm3 or per mL.  Now we're down into ppt(trillion, to be clear) measurements for some foods; just. like. that.

Probably.  Now, I say "probably" because the cohort in that study is NOWHERE NEAR large enough for those kind of statistics to be truly useful.  Why not?  Because the variance associated with that value is pretty much huge.

I'm also pretty confident in stating that a 95% confidence interval isn't acceptable to most people in that most sensitive 10% of patients or their families.   :-/



Okay, suppose that we DON'T make the analytical problem so far out as to seem currently daunting.  So suppose that level is set to protect at the ED10 level-- that is, only 10% of allergic people would need to be "worried" below that level...

well, that is down to 5 mg per serving.  So into low PPM, probably.   That is do-able, but probably not in all food matrices at this time, and probably not with the kind of accuracy anyone wants.

It also leaves out the people in that most sensitive 10%.  You know, the people who find the allergy the HARDEST TO LIVE WITH TO START WITH?

Now, I'm not suggesting that we need to work this at some ED0.0001 level.  I'm not.

But I am saying that throwing several THOUSAND of the most sensitive people under the bus here is probably just wrong.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: spacecanada on February 06, 2013, 08:45:15 AM
Has anyone factored in that people may eat more than one serving of something, more than ten servings of something, or some obscene number of servings which could put them over the minimum threshold and kill them?  Think of some teenager (sorry to pick on them) eating a whole box of cereal that should be 'safe' only to find out that it is only safe if they ate a maximum of two servings.  And what if they were in an unusually bad pollen season, and their asthma was flaring up, and their allergy cup was pretty full to begin with, pushing their threshold even lower than 'normal'.  Would one serving put them over the edge?  There are simply too many factors that affect allergies and their tolerances.  It's not worth the risk.

For us, it's allergen-free facilities only.  We've learnt the hard way too many times.  Good manufacturing procedures (same facility, allergens on a different line) and thorough cleanings aren't enough for the extremely low tolerance levels in this house.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: GoingNuts on February 06, 2013, 05:31:08 PM
Good point on the serving size issue, spacecanada, I hadn't even thought of that.  If you responded to the survey, I hope you mentioned that!
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: spacecanada on February 08, 2013, 09:11:34 PM
If you responded to the survey, I hope you mentioned that!
Yes, I made it my biggest point!  I have done this: ate a whole bag of cereal after a half marathon, whilst my system is in overdrive and I'm even more sensitive to allergens... yep.  Recipe for disaster?  If there was some 'acceptable' level of cross contamination per serving, six servings eaten within 15 minutes could have killed me.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: booandbrimom on February 09, 2013, 08:41:10 AM
Ran across this while reviewing the FARRP site information:

http://www.tno.nl/downloads/food_allergy_in_children.pdf

CM, thought you would like it especially.

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: GoingNuts on February 09, 2013, 11:00:10 AM

Yes, I made it my biggest point!  I have done this: ate a whole bag of cereal after a half marathon, whilst my system is in overdrive and I'm even more sensitive to allergens... yep.  Recipe for disaster?  If there was some 'acceptable' level of cross contamination per serving, six servings eaten within 15 minutes could have killed me.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on February 09, 2013, 12:37:34 PM
Ran across this while reviewing the FARRP site information:

[url]http://www.tno.nl/downloads/food_allergy_in_children.pdf[/url]

CM, thought you would like it especially.


That's a great find, Boo.  You're right, I do like it.

One thing that I wonder about though, is that it is known that apple and hazelnut (and peach, if memory serves) allergies are different (evidently) in geographically diverse populations across Europe-- one thing which is not yet clear (as far as I know) is whether or not those differences are genetically based or if they are dictated by regional exposure to pollens.

This tickled my memory because while I know many hazelnut allergic persons, I don't know anyone with the kind of sensitivity that this study suggests is reasonably normative in that population.  Ergo, I wonder if the people I know have "the other" kind of hazelnut allergy-- the one which is more common in another region of Europe, I mean.  South of the the Alps/Pyrenees, food allergies seem to be different in some fundamental ways.   This is also seen (somewhat) on an East-West boundary line in the middle Mediterranean, as well-- but is that because of exposure?  Cultural food preferences?  Not really clear what all of that means.  It's been assumed that it's based solely on exposure... but if that were true, then rice allergy ought to dominate Asia, and wheat allergy ought to dominate southern Europe.  But clearly that isn't the whole story.   :-/

The vast majority of studies like this one are from extreme Northern Europe  (pretty much all of the studies large enough to have statistics associated are from Norway, Sweden, and Holland).  So just what does that mean when translating those threshold determinations to a more genetically (and geographically) diverse population such as that in North America?

I'll also add that they probably didn't include C.I. data for a good reason in that one-- like the other study, the numbers are small enough that those confidence intervals are probably huge unless they systematically excluded those with very high and very low thresholds.  Such people already probably self-select out of such studies to start with.

How many people with apparent reactivity like my DD's to peanut (or Boo's to milk) would consent to a DBPC challenge for the allergen?  Not many.  Of that population of people, I'm guessing that number would be less than 5%.

Similarly, why would someone with a tolerance like that achieved with desensitization go through one?  Again-- they wouldn't.  (Mostly.)
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on May 29, 2013, 10:17:48 AM
https://www.foodallergy.org/laws-and-regulations/current-issues

Quote
FARE submitted its official comment to the FDA’s public docket on a risk assessment for establishing threshold levels for major food allergens on May 13.

Quote
Responses to FARE’s survey may be viewed
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on May 29, 2013, 11:08:52 AM
OH my.

It's stunning the number of responses which indicate severe reactions....

and also the sheer, overwhelming number of responses which indicate that a diagnosis was made at least in part by a naturopath or dietician.

Quote
Started with acupuncturist 18 years ago for myself, allergist finised helping me
recently. Allergist for kids. Husband self-diagnosed

 :disappointed:
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: twinturbo on May 29, 2013, 01:13:18 PM
Until the quack detritus is filtered out I have no idea how this branch of medicine is going to truly gain traction.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on May 29, 2013, 01:41:59 PM
My take-away from this is that once you remove the "I think that I have an intolerance" group from things, the IgE-mediated food allergic people who answered this survey fall into two groups:

1) have seen terrifyingly severe reactions and want NO part of poking the dragon with a stick.  Ever.

2) are patting themselves on the back for their mad skilz at avoidance.  (Many of those seem to report RAST levels in the process).

The former group is about 50% of the genuinely allergic responders.

I was surprised that so few people keyed in on the notion that there is no practical way on earth that an industry that can't even track infectious agents in source materials could possibly be relied upon to offer allergen loads in a tight confidence interval.

I found my comments and Boo's quite easily.  Actually, over the years, I know some people's writing styles so well, I identified about 20 people via their comments.  ;)


(ETA:  Thanks, in-house grammar-and-usage police...  ~)  )
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on June 02, 2013, 01:39:54 PM
An interesting threshold comment

Food Allergy Research & Resource Program, University of Nebraska

FDA-2012-N-0711-0053

Quote
FARRP is an industry-funded consortium with more than 70 member companies.

Quote
FARRP would further note that processing and manufacturing processes likely affect the prevalence, severity and potency of allergenic foods in some cases. In the passage of FALCPA, Congress wisely exempted highly refined oils likely because of good evidence that highly refined peanut and soybean oils were safe for ingestion by peanut- and soybean-allergic individuals (Hourihane et al., 1997; Bush et al., 1985). Highly refined oils contain virtually no detectable protein with the protein being largely removed by the refining process (Rigby et al., 2011). However, the manufacturing of other ingredients derived from commonly allergenic sources as defined by FALCPA also greatly reduces the amount of protein or allergen from the source. Many examples exist including butter ester, butter acid, glucose syrup from wheat, ethanol from wheat, wheat starch, and shea nut oil or butter. FARRP would urge FDA to consider the use of quantitative risk assessment together with data on the protein levels of such ingredients to develop a transparent approach to source labeling exemptions for specific ingredients. Other ingredients, such as soy lecithin, contain trace levels of protein that may merit source labeling under some but not all uses. FARRP likewise encourages FDA to use quantitative risk assessment to make decisions regarding uses of such ingredients which should have source labeling and others which would not. Separately, FARRP has worked with a major soy lecithin manufacturer (Solae) to conduct a quantitative risk assessment on soy lecithin which will be shared as a separate response to this Notice. FARRP would further note that protein-containing ingredients from commonly allergenic sources can occasionally contain only trace levels of the allergenic protein. That appears to be the case with extensively washed fish gelatin (Koppelman et al., 2012). Fish gelatin is primarily collagen obtained from fish skins; washing during fish gelatin manufacturing removes parvalbumin, the primary fish allergen. Clinical evidence indicates that fish gelatin derived from cod is safe for ingestion by cod-allergic individuals except at rather high doses (Hansen et al., 2004). FARRP encourages FDA to take this sort of evidence into consideration when making a source labeling exemption decision on fish gelatin.

Quote
FARRP would assert that regulatory thresholds could be appropriately based upon use of the ED01
estimate where sufficient data exist to allow that estimate to be confidently made (for peanut, milk, egg,
and hazelnut) and use of the 95% lower confidence interval of ED05 estimate in other cases (for soybean,
wheat, and crustacean shellfish).

------------------------------------

General Mills Inc

FDA-2012-N-0711-0062

Quote
In addition to our direct comments, we fully endorse comments submitted by the Food Allergy Research and Resource Program.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on June 02, 2013, 02:02:10 PM
Another interesting comment

The International Dairy Foods Association (IDFA)

ID: FDA-2012-N-0711-0046

Quote
Definition of Tree Nuts Should be Reviewed
We would also request that FDA review comments regarding the list of tree nuts included in the Q&A document, previously submitted by Grocery Manufacturers Association to Docket No. 2005D-0490 on May 14, 2007. These comments identified some concerns with categorizing ten nuts including coconut as a major food allergen, due to the botanical classification and the lack of incidence of severe allergic reactions. IDFA strongly agrees with GMA’s comments that review of the scientific literature establishes there are insufficient data to support the inclusion of beech nut, butternut, chinquapin, ginkgo nut, hickory nut, pili nut, sheanut, chestnut, coconut, and lichee nut in a list of major food allergens. Inclusions of “tree nuts” that have either no history of sensitization and elicitation of allergic reactions (beech nut, butternut, chinquapin, ginkgo nut, hickory nut, pili nut, and sheanut), or only a few cases of mild and non-life threatening reactions (chestnut, coconut, and lichee nut) contradict the intent of FALCPA and leads to an unnecessary elimination of food choices that are enjoyable, nutritious and convenient to allergic consumers
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on June 02, 2013, 03:12:28 PM
Grocery Manufacturers Association GMA

FDA-2012-N-0711-0063

Quote
Moreover, GMA and the food associations who have joined this letter believe that the Agency should not require any recalls for packaged food products that may contain trace amounts of an undeclared allergen at or below the established threshold as the risk to human health would be extremely low.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on June 02, 2013, 03:27:48 PM
Comment from Food Allergy Research and Education FARE

FDA-2012-N-0711-0059

Quote
FARE has decided to answer questions 1, 2 and 7 posed by the FDA; we feel that
our areas of expertise are best suited to those questions.


Quote
FARE urges FDA to first engage in outreach to the food allergy community to explain how
thresholds would affect families who live with food allergies, and then engage in notice and
comment rulemaking to establish any thresholds.


Quote
FARE urges FDA to use its authority under the misbranding provisions of Sec. 403 of the Food Drug and Cosmetic
Act to publish regulations that protect food allergic consumers from confusing and misleading
statements about allergens on food labels.


Quote
FDA should specify a small number of cautionary statements
with clearly defined, consistently-applied meanings to indicate whether a processed food that is
not intended to contain major food allergens may contain them due to manufacturing
processes. FARE would be pleased to work with FDA to develop specific language suggestions,
because accurate labeling is critical to allow consumers managing food allergies to make an
informed and safe choice about the products they purchase and feed to their families.


Quote
FARE encourages rigorous application of
preventive controls to eliminate the unintended presence of allergens in foods which might
reduce the need for cautionary labeling.


------------------------

ETA this link also

"Can we establish safe allergen thresholds in foods? What does the current science say?"
http://foodallergysleuth.blogspot.com/2013/02/can-we-establish-safe-allergen.html

I especially like the conclusion.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on June 02, 2013, 03:57:42 PM
Grocery Manufacturers Association GMA

FDA-2012-N-0711-0063

Quote
Moreover, GMA and the food associations who have joined this letter believe that the Agency should not require any recalls for packaged food products that may contain trace amounts of an undeclared allergen at or below the established threshold as the risk to human health would be extremely low.


This comment alone ought to give the FDA pause in considering any other commentary from GMA.

Because they are quite deliberately sidestepping any responsibility to allergic consumers by conflating risk to the GENERAL population ('extremely low') and that to highly sensitive allergic consumers (moderate to very high).

This suggests that they genuinely have no compunction about killing allergic consumers-- that some people don't, I don't know-- deserve (?) to be able to rely upon food safety and labels.



The notion that oils are hypoallergenic is also based on sampling methodology which is highly suspect, as the working group tasked with threshold determination back in 2004 rapidly discovered.  Those with the lowest thresholds are at greatest RISK OF FATALITY-- not just in a dose dependent manner, as one might anticipate, but in a non-linear fashion as well.

For those people, there may really not be a threshold above the current limit of determination.  I daresay that with sesame, cashew, and peanut in particular, there may not be a threshold above the limit of detection. 

What is problematic about ANY establishment of threshold for 'food safety/labeling' requirements is that it is based upon a confidence interval. 

That means that SOME of the most vulnerable population (that is, those very low-threshold allergic consumers) is going to be thrown under the bus.  The only real question is-- how many of them?

We don't even know the answer to this-- because there has never been a systematic effort to determine threshold for a wide enough swathe of clinical patients.  Those WILLING to undergo DBPCFC's are not necessarily a good population sample for the whole population, and good luck getting an IRB approval to do an oral challenge on a child who has been intubated after a skin prick test.

THAT end of the sensitivity spectrum is an unknown and undefined population.  It just is.  There's no way to get a good profile of those people without risking death for a few of them in the process.

So the real question is...

how badly do we want to know?  What's it worth to us as a community?

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on June 02, 2013, 04:11:38 PM
Those with the lowest thresholds are at greatest RISK OF FATALITY-- not just in a dose dependent manner, as one might anticipate, but in a non-linear fashion as well.

Another FARRP quote

Quote
Previously, we have demonstrated for peanut that patients with
histories of severe allergic reactions do not have lower thresholds by comparison to peanut-allergic
patients without such histories (Taylor et al., 2010).
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on June 02, 2013, 04:25:33 PM
Ahhhhh-- but that isn't the same thing.


Low threshold = severe reactions

is not the same as saying

severe reactions == low thresholds.

Those can be independent statements.  The reason is that very few people are on that 'highly sensitive' tail of the allergic population to start with.

  That is, those with very low thresholds for reactivity MAY be a different group which is composed of "severe reacting" individuals, and it still wouldn't skew the overall distribution if you looked at the larger group "people who have had severe reactions" since that group of people is VERY much larger than the 2-3% of lowest threshold individuals...

and it seems to be true that those people have really severe reactions to traces and have drifting thresholds  (I'll dig out source material later, but it's in the FDA's working group's report), but they are a very difficult group to study. 

There may well be those with severe reaction history who require higher thresholds... but I'm suggesting that they are the minority in the 'regular' allergic populations.  That is, that they may be "average" in threshold dose but not in terms of reaction severity... but that doesn't make them typical of the low-threshold group that is impacted by threshold decisions in food labeling.

We really DO NOT know much about that group.

But-- again, the sampling conundrum.  In any such study, you are required to do informed consent, and the participants have to be informed of RISKS.  If you can't sample randomly and include everyone you select, then your sample is not exactly representative to begin with.



People who have really severe histories from really tiny trace exposures are simply not going to get approval to participate in challenges, and they probably aren't going to volunteer, either.  They'll self-select OUT of such studies, which just goes to demonstrate that the Taylor study was a tremendous waste of resources, frankly.  But I suppose on the one hand it was a success, since it showed exactly what the prinicipal investigator has always hoped is true.

 ~)

 

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: Janelle205 on June 02, 2013, 04:41:42 PM
I took benadryl and pain killers, so I'm worried that this is going to seem mangled, but I'm trying.

Going along with what CM said:

I know that I am a statistical outlier.  My doctor and I laughed yesterday when he said "What is it like to be you?"

Not only does threshold level and reaction severity not necessarily correlate among the population, it also doesn't necessarily correlate within a person.

I have had severe reactions to tiny amounts of one allergen - anaphylaxis from what we assume was contact ingestion.  I have also had severe reactions to a different allergen which I directly ingested a lot more before I started reacting.


I'm not sure what that means for the population overall, but I just wanted to share.  I can have skin exposure to a small amount of very processed apple and have a serious reaction.  I could probably eat a pan of scrambled eggs and just end up with a few hives, eczema, and a stomach ache.  (Ok, I might throw up, but that is probably more because I think that eggs are gross.)
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on June 02, 2013, 08:07:29 PM
The reason that throwing THAT population of food allergic people under the bus makes me so mad?

(Aside from the fact that my DD is probably in that group with peanut, anyway.)

Because they are the group that already faces the greatest limitation and risk in their daily lives.  Nothing like having their own patient advocacy group and government tell them "you're outliers.  Your safety doesn't matter."

How many of those people is it okay to give the giant kiss-off to, anyway?

Are only some allergens special that way?

Like I said-- we. don't. know.

As long as we don't know the answer to that question, this strikes me as being much like the treatment that sesame allergy has gotten by the FDA.  If they don't have the data, then it must not be important, right?  :-/

 
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: Janelle205 on June 02, 2013, 08:52:50 PM
Are only some allergens special that way?

Like I said-- we. don't. know.

I doubt it.  Apples are on almost every 'least allergenic foods' list out there.  And I react to them in ways that really do not seem possible, except that it has happened, so it has to be.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on June 02, 2013, 09:13:29 PM
I doubt it, too.  The very very few studies that exist on 'how little is enough' suggest that some allergens have thresholds that are really, really, really low for some individuals...

but the N's are so small in those studies that it could quite easily be true that they only capture the central two standard deviations, and not the actual tails of the sensitivity distribution.  The ones that I'm familiar with that use good experimental design tend to report that some individuals report subjective symptoms from the lowest doses in the range.

Clinicians know that these people exist.  They know because they see them.  Not every outlier gets a write-up in a medical journal, because their doctors are busy being-- well, clinicians.

Besides, the extant studies do NOT include many common allergens that are-- just anecdotally-- thought to not be life-threatening at trace levels-- things like soy, wheat, and non-seed allergens outside of the top 8.  Obviously they ARE life-threatening for some people, as you do occasionally hear reports of fatalities, particularly outside the top 8.  One of the saddest allergy fatality tales I've ever heard is of the young mum in the UK who died after opening a can of tomatoes in order to make her children a meal.  SHE clearly had a pretty low threshold-- and was possibly taken by surprise by just how low?-- and to an allergen that "shouldn't" be possible.

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: twinturbo on June 03, 2013, 07:59:02 AM
Apple as an allergen is almost always associated with birch sensitivity, which while not a food allergen is a major or common environmental allergen, and even with environmental allergy immunotherapy there is a risk for anaphylaxis as most places won't deliver the interval 'shots' without the patient bringing their EAI with them in conjunction to a 30 min office wait post-injection.

Whereas peanut, milk, etc tend to be primary stand alone allergens fruits seem to start with common pollen allergens. Janelle and I happen to be a couple of outliers that anaphylax and even then there's a couple standard deviations between my reactions and Janelle's. Our birch sensitization may be similar, however.

But yeah, highlight and underscore everything CM wrote better than I could about when papers become unread, unquestioned, misinterpreted absolute truth.
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on August 23, 2013, 04:28:19 PM
An older related thread:

http://allergy.hyperboards.com/action/view_topic/topic_id/17461

----------------------------------

http://allergicliving.com/index.php/2013/12/30/is-peanut-oil-safe-or-not/
Quote
If your allergist is comfortable with you consuming refined peanut oil, then you will need to take great care to ensure that you use only products with this type of oil. This will likely involve contacting a manufacturer or restaurant chain, and checking each time.


----------------------------------

Food Allergy Research & Resource Program, University of Nebraska
FDA-2012-N-0711-0053
Quote
In the passage of FALCPA, Congress wisely exempted highly refined oils likely because of good evidence that highly refined peanut and soybean oils were safe for ingestion by peanut- and soybean-allergic individuals (Hourihane et al., 1997; Bush et al., 1985). Highly refined oils contain virtually no detectable protein with the protein being largely removed by the refining process (Rigby et al., 2011).


----------------------------------

Peanut Threshold Study

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on March 13, 2014, 08:46:20 AM
http://www.namamillers.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/4-Stephen-Taylor-2013.pdf
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on March 13, 2014, 09:03:17 AM
http://ohmahdeehness.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/shared-equipment-facilities-and-food-allergy/

Quote
This month’s Food Allergy Buzz Blog Carnival theme is cross contamination


Quote
Somewhere between a company deciding whether a trace amount is too small to disclose (see above) or a company that makes a blanket warning on a single ingredient item (see above also), I think there needs to be a real discussion about labeling and disclosure not just for the benefit of food allergic families but all who wish to know what they’re eating.



Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: spacecanada on March 13, 2014, 09:42:35 AM
Great finds, Links! Nowhere, though, does it mention what would happen if a sensitive individual ate multiple servings of a product containing 0.1 mg of peanut, pushing that dose up to 1+ mg, which could cause a reaction.  Someone eating a whole box of cereal in a day, for instance, or half a box of cookies.  (I'm guilty of both!)  Or simply various foods throughout the day that may have 0.1 mg in them, but combined over the day create a much higher dose?  Why is this simple real world situation being ignored?
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: rebekahc on March 13, 2014, 10:27:14 AM
Or, to piggyback on SpaceCanada's example...  What if I get all the contaminated pieces of cereal (or whatever) in my one serving?  How do they determine the level of contamination per serving?  There's X mg of contamination per batch, a batch = Y servings therefore there's Z mg contamination per serving? That may work mathematically, but that's not the way contamination works.  One peanut per batch is very low contamination per serving but I'd hate to get the serving that actually has the peanut.  I'm thinking the food industry will treat contamination the same way they do trans-fat (manipulating the math to say there's 0g trans-fat when that's not really true -especially if you eat more than one serving).
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on May 01, 2014, 11:20:14 PM
I am up too late tonight  :-/


"Precautionary labelling of foods for allergen content: are we ready for a global framework?"
http://www.waojournal.org/content/7/1/10

Tweeted by Aller_MD
Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on June 16, 2014, 08:57:02 PM
From FARE email:

Quote
Mary Jane Marchisotto, senior vice president of research


Quote
Marchisotto and Laurie Harada, executive director of Anaphylaxis Canada, together with other advocates and researchers, are working on a paper examining patients’ attitudes toward food allergen threshold labeling, which will be submitted for publication.



Reminds me to try & get to this thread soon ...
Docket FDA-2008-N-0429 - Advisory Labeling Comments & Info

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on December 11, 2014, 11:06:17 AM
Tweeted by @AllergyEducator

Understanding food allergen thresholds requires careful analysis of the available clinical data

Steve L. Taylor, PhD, Geert F. Houben, PhD, Joseph L. Baumert, PhD, Rene R.W.R. Crevel, PhD, Katrina J. Allen, MD, PhD, Anthony E.J. Dubois, MD, Andre C. Knulst, MD, Benjamin C. Remington, PhD, Astrid G. Kruizinga, MSc, W. Marty Blom, PhD, Simon Brooke-Taylor, PhD
Published Online: November 21, 2014

-----


I can't seem to get access to this article, but my guess is that some of you will find it interesting.





Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: CMdeux on December 12, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
analysis of the available clinical data


What, and pretend that the stuff that IRB's won't approve just-- doesn't MATTER??

 :insane: :dunce:


Sorry, but I have not got a lot of patience for this kind of thing.  That's just lousy science.

I mean-- does ANYONE truly think that designing a braking system in a car can just, I dunno...   ignore friction in doing calculations?  Because it's too hard to measure or something?

No?

Well, then, why is it okay to IGNORE the people who face the largest risks of death from cross-contamination when crafting policies to (nominally, clearly-- because it's far from pragmatically so) "protect" food allergic consumers.

I'm not buying it.  This is about protecting food manufacturers from liability, and giving them a pass on disclosure.  Nothing more.

Title: Re: Survey on Thresholds from FARE
Post by: LinksEtc on December 30, 2014, 08:14:00 AM
Tweeted by @AllergyEducator

"Food Allergens: Impacts and Challenges"
http://toolbox.foodproductdesign.com/Videos/2014/12/FTTb-Food-Allergens.aspx


Stephen L. Taylor, Ph.D.


------------------------------------


Tweeted by @eliza68

"How much is too much?: Threshold dose distributions for 5 food allergens"
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749%2814%2901590-5/abstract