Food Allergy Support

Discussion Boards => Schools and Food Allergies => Topic started by: ajasfolks2 on October 30, 2011, 08:29:58 AM

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Title: College Related
Post by: ajasfolks2 on October 30, 2011, 08:29:58 AM
Not sure if somewhere else on board this was posted already (before the event -- which has now passed).

Wanted to be sure it's in Schools.



Quote
Preparing the Food Allergic Student
for College and Beyond
 
                                                October 19th, 2011 at 7:00




Massachusetts General Hospital
O’Keeffe Auditorium
55 Fruit Street
Boston, MA 02114


Please join the MassGeneral Hospital Food Allergy Center and the Food Allergy and Anaphylaxis Network for a program on how to manage food allergies in the college setting.


An expert panel will highlight the process on how to inform colleges of the presence of a food allergy, engage college disability services, notify and provide documentation for college health services, secure a safe housing environment, and coordinate dietary needs with food services and how to discuss with peers.


Featured speakers will include:
Wayne Shreffler, M.D., PhD Director of the Food Allergy Center Mass General Hospital
Marion Groetch, MS, RD, CDN Senior Dietitian Jaffe Food Allergy Institute Mount Sinai School of Medicine New York, NY
Christopher Weiss VP, Advocacy and Government Relations of the Food Allergy & Anaphylaxis Network (FAAN)
Sheila Tucker, MA, RD, CSSD, LDN Boston College Executive Dietitian, Auxiliary Services and Part-time Faculty, Connell School of Nursing
Nancy Rotter, PhD Pediatric Psychologist, Food Allergy Center Mass General Hospital
Laura A. De Veau, M.Ed. Assistant Dean of Students for Residence Life Mount Ida College


The program is free and open to the public.  Seats are limited.




Please RSVP to foodallergy@mgh.harvard.edu or at the
Food Allergy Center at MGH Facebook page



Did anyone here happen to attend? 


My bold and highlighting this from above:


An expert panel will highlight the process on how to inform colleges of the presence of a food allergy, engage college disability services, notify and provide documentation for college health services, secure a safe housing environment, and coordinate dietary needs with food services and how to discuss with peers.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: yellow on October 30, 2011, 09:18:57 AM
Wonder if they have PowerPoint presentations or a summary that they could email over....
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on October 30, 2011, 09:24:52 AM
Since we are looking at colleges, I have to say that there is so much more to it than that.  Of the colleges I have called or visited, there is only one that I think could safely prepare a meal for dd (allergic to milk, peanut, avoiding tree nuts).  Really it is like eating in a restaurant three meals a day for four years.  Most of us with MFA kids almost never eat in restaurants with our kids.  I wish it were that easy and involved simply informing them....sigh.  The colleges seem very willing to accomodate, just clueless about cross contamination.  And with something like milk, it is going to be in almost everything.  I would love to go to a presentation like that.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on October 30, 2011, 11:01:26 AM
Honestly, I'm not sure that it is realistic (other than at a very small institution) to EXPECT that dining halls can get this 100% right for a person who is highly sensitive to a food allergen.  Maybe for a single treenut or for peanut alone.  But for wheat?  For soy, egg, or milk?  They simply CANNOT meet their obligations to the rest of the student population without retaining the use of the allergen(s).



Sure-- it "should" be possible for anyone with any disability to be given a fully inclusive college experience just like their peers--

but realistically?

Nobody should believe that it will actually happen that way day in and day out for four years or more. 

That's like insisting that a Thai restaurant SERVE YOU SAFELY if you have a peanut or shellfish allergy.  Or that a pizza place make you something safe if you have a milk allergy.  KWIM?  Then to expect them to KEEP doing it every day.



With that said-- the HOUSING arrangements are what will need coordinating through disability services.  Because MFA/LTFA students may well need the ability to prepare food for themselves in order to reduce risk.  This may be contrary to institution residency requirements, etc. 

Something to know:

many larger institutions (particularly those with graduate populations) may have efficiency apartments and 'family' student housing on or near a campus.  Students who have a NEED for kitchen facilities or other special living arrangements by virtue of disability (such as the need for a live-in aid or service animal) may be prioritized for such housing.  But without going through disability services and being a QID, this is likely NOT going to be an option that will be even mentioned-- much less offered.

Also know that frequently, demand for those housing slots is VERY much higher than supply-- so mention it EARLY ON if you think this is something to pursue.

Many of the people in administrative positions (and certainly in faculty ones) will never have had experience with a true LTFA before.  Know that, and be pleasant and patient with their relative ignorance--

but involve disability services.  Right from the start.  Because they DO know, more often than not-- and they can help others on campus to understand your needs and what is an okay (inclusive/non-identifying) way of handling those needs-- and what is NOT okay.

("Hi-- this is ________, everyone.  S/he has a food allergy.  I'll let him/her explain it to everyone."   :paddle:)




Title: Re: College Related
Post by: twinturbo on October 30, 2011, 01:13:01 PM
I'm a registered patient at Brigham Women's and my nurse is super friendly. I might be able to have her send me some of the paper or electronic info from it. Although from the looks of Nancy Rotter I may want to contact her instead. They're usually putting on something useful at MGH wrt to FA.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GingerPye on November 08, 2011, 01:39:50 PM
http://ryan-vm.dor.uni.edu/FoodPro/shortmenu.asp?sName=UNIVERSITY+OF+NORTHERN+IOWA&locationNum=01&locationName=Piazza+at+Redeker+Center&naFlag=1

Not sure how to make that link shorter. 

The above link is to the dining area at a local university.  DD will be going there for a festival for school.  This, to me, is AMAZING.  All I have to do is set the filters for my daughter's allergens, click on the date, then the apple, and then the menu item -- and I get an ingredient listing for each item.

Plus, I have written info on what they do to avoid cross-contamination.  All my daughter has to do is let them know of her menu choices and they will have it ready for her when she gets there.  They talk the good talk about food allergies, at least on the phone and by email.  I hope that everything goes as well as it sounds.

This may be very common now, but when I went to a food allergy conference in Chicago two years ago, the parents were complaining that a lot of colleges do not get FAs and do not accomodate them; and so they had to rent an apartment for the FA child. 

*****
editing this to add that I understand some people would not be comfortable with this or safe with this.  I'm not sure yet if DD will be safe.  It sounds  good.  I'll let you know her experience after she has gone there.

*****
editing again:  http://www.uni.edu/dor/dining/nutrition/special.html
This is the page that discusses special dietary needs, and then some of the allergens are listed at the bottom as a clickable link.  Clicking on those, they describe procedures they use to avoid cross-contamination.

What I'm having difficulty with is the statement that even tho they have ingredient listings online, manufacturers' formulations may change.

*****
Please feel free to add your two cents! 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: maeve on November 08, 2011, 04:13:09 PM
Honestly, I'm not sure that it is realistic (other than at a very small institution) to EXPECT that dining halls can get this 100% right for a person who is highly sensitive to a food allergen.  Maybe for a single treenut or for peanut alone.  But for wheat?  For soy, egg, or milk?  They simply CANNOT meet their obligations to the rest of the student population without retaining the use of the allergen(s).



Sure-- it "should" be possible for anyone with any disability to be given a fully inclusive college experience just like their peers--

but realistically?

Nobody should believe that it will actually happen that way day in and day out for four years or more. 

That's like insisting that a Thai restaurant SERVE YOU SAFELY if you have a peanut or shellfish allergy.  Or that a pizza place make you something safe if you have a milk allergy.  KWIM?  Then to expect them to KEEP doing it every day.



With that said-- the HOUSING arrangements are what will need coordinating through disability services.  Because MFA/LTFA students may well need the ability to prepare food for themselves in order to reduce risk.  This may be contrary to institution residency requirements, etc. 

Something to know:

many larger institutions (particularly those with graduate populations) may have efficiency apartments and 'family' student housing on or near a campus.  Students who have a NEED for kitchen facilities or other special living arrangements by virtue of disability (such as the need for a live-in aid or service animal) may be prioritized for such housing.  But without going through disability services and being a QID, this is likely NOT going to be an option that will be even mentioned-- much less offered.

Also know that frequently, demand for those housing slots is VERY much higher than supply-- so mention it EARLY ON if you think this is something to pursue.

Many of the people in administrative positions (and certainly in faculty ones) will never have had experience with a true LTFA before.  Know that, and be pleasant and patient with their relative ignorance--

but involve disability services.  Right from the start.  Because they DO know, more often than not-- and they can help others on campus to understand your needs and what is an okay (inclusive/non-identifying) way of handling those needs-- and what is NOT okay.

("Hi-- this is ________, everyone.  S/he has a food allergy.  I'll let him/her explain it to everyone."   :paddle:)






Replying to the part I bolded about small institutions:  That might really depend on the school.  I went to a very small scholl (fewer than 300 resident students when I attended) and I honestly could not see the food services there being able to accommodate food allergies.  Even though a school is small, it will still usually contract out food services and being a smaller school, it's not as likely to get the newer food options that largest institutions (and I imagine that this might also encompass training and facilities).
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 08, 2011, 04:18:58 PM
Ugh... yeah, I'm thinking that this is probably not adequate for some people with high sensitivity, though, Ginger-- their advice for milk allergic persons includes:

Quote
• Avoid any breaded products (chicken sandwiches, breaded-fish sandwich, chicken nuggets, pork fritter, etc.) as the batters on these items often contain milk proteins. Also items could be fried in the same oils as products that contain this allergen.
• Avoid the desserts as they may or may not have dairy products in the mix. All desserts are baked in a large convection oven and have the possibility for cross contamination. Fresh fruit is the most nutritious dessert and it is dairy free!
• The breads made in the bakery can contain dairy products. Manufacturers may change the formulation of the product and we may not be aware of it. Always just ask to read a label.
• Soy Silk milk is available in all of the residential restaurants.
• Following a milk-free diet can be tricky! Milk and milk products can show up on a label under many different names.

Bolded items mine...  :disappointed:


The advice-- just generally, I mean-- seems well-intended, but probably not sufficient to allow a student with a low milk threshold to adequately eat with a dining plan as a resident, IMO.

I noticed some of the same issues with the egg, wheat, and soy advice. 

If it's been a while since you've eaten in a dining hall on campus-- I really recommend that you pop in and see what it looks like during a rush.

There is quite simply no way that a student could have something "special ordered" and expect it to be handled carefully.  It's like a military mess hall, almost.

So the advice to make sure that food isn't on a shared grill, etc. is fine in theory, but I have some misgivings about how that would/could be implemented in reality.

What that also boils down to is that students with ONE LTFA might be able to navigate successfully with avoidance and label-reading-- but it does place entire categories of foods off-limits.

For example, my egg-, nut-, and peanut-allergic daughter would have to avoid:

a) desserts-- all.
b) items grilled on a communal grill-- all.
c) breads/bakery products-- all.
d) self-serve areas
e) anything deep-fried
f) anything wok-prepared
g) pizza (and anything made in the area/ovens)
h) salad bar areas
i) anything ASIAN.

I'm not entirely sure what someone like her WOULD eat safely, in light of those mind-boggling restrictions.  Each and every meal would be a 'special order.'

In spite of the cheery admonition to "just let us know" and to "quickly educate" those without a clue about LTFA...

huh... call me a bit skeptical.   :-/

I also find it very peculiar that no mention is made ANYWHERE about fish or shellfish allergies, which are also high risk for lethal anaphylaxis in high volume food preparation.  (Shared fryers, etc.) In young adults, this is often an EMERGENT and brand new LTFA.  It seems like that ought to be a real focal point in a food service program that 'gets' LTFA, because those individuals are at very high risk due to relative inexperience, if nothing else.



Maeve, that is a really good point.  Smaller may just mean smaller staffing and facilities, too.  I just meant it in terms of high-volume at peak demand-- meaning that mealtimes at a large dining hall might be especially challenging on a campus of 20K students, and less chaotic at one with only 2K students. 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GingerPye on November 08, 2011, 05:09:03 PM
For what it's worth, they do have fish and shellfish listed on the filter --- so that can be eliminated for choices on the menu. 

But I get what you are saying.  Yes, someone like your DD would have very few choices. 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 08, 2011, 05:16:13 PM
It's encouraging, though, that they recognize those situations as high risk for XC.

Many places would not have known that much a decade ago, for sure.   :yes:
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 08, 2011, 05:28:20 PM
Okay, Ginger-- one thing that you'll want to be VERY careful about is that the filtering that the system does is not inclusive of cross-contamination risks.

ONLY actual ingredients, and even that isn't foolproof-- for example, "Margarine and Mayonnaise" popped up as being 'fine' even after I filtered for results that didn't contain egg...

and "ice cream, vanilla" was included when I filtered for treenuts and peanuts.

Basically, what THEY thought was safe as breakfast fare was hot/cold cereal (which, okay-- MAYbe... though I know of quite a few items there that are UNSAFE in terms of PN/TNA), sausages, and fruit... but some of the listings rang alarm bells for me with my years of experience-- for example, cut-up fruit and sausages are both risks in a kitchen that uses eggs and treenut containing foods.

KWIM?

There are things there that the filters claim as "okay" but that the advice on the main page suggests are NOT okay due to cross-contamination avoidance advice.  So do be wary of anything that seems too good to be true. 

Let us know how it goes, too-- because this is definitely one of the better systems that I've seen in action-- provided that it works the way it is supposed to.  (That is, if dining staffers know to keep labels, etc. available and have been trained to recognize XC risks and answer questions.)
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: maeve on November 08, 2011, 06:14:34 PM
CM,
All valid points in your last post.  Another thing to consider with the cold cereal is that it is most often stored in dispensers (like candy machines) and you  have no idea what has been stored in those dispensers previously.

Basically, depending on the school and its dining options, most dining halls are buffets/cafeterias and I don't let DD eat at one of those now, why would I expect her to be able to when she goes to college?

As with the small college, at my school only three meals were served per day (and only two per day on weekends) and there were no other dining options other than the dining hall (there were no cards that you could use at other food vendors).  So even though the volume of students was small there were limited options and peak times because serving times were limited. 

I think any size school can pose a risk.  It's a shame that college dining halls are not required to have EpiPens on hand just in case (many have AED devices).  I just keep thinking of that Georgia college student (who, yes did have his Epis). 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: maeve on November 08, 2011, 06:17:07 PM
CM,
The last part of your post had me thinking that this is really an area where FAAN and FAI could lead the way.  They should get on the forefront of developing a good practices guidelines for colleges and universities and then offer a searchable database to FAAN members looking at colleges of those schools who participate in the program.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on November 08, 2011, 09:34:44 PM
Okay, Ginger-- one thing that you'll want to be VERY careful about is that the filtering that the system does is not inclusive of cross-contamination risks.

ONLY actual ingredients, and even that isn't foolproof-- for example, "Margarine and Mayonnaise" popped up as being 'fine' even after I filtered for results that didn't contain egg...

and "ice cream, vanilla" was included when I filtered for treenuts and peanuts.

Basically, what THEY thought was safe as breakfast fare was hot/cold cereal (which, okay-- MAYbe... though I know of quite a few items there that are UNSAFE in terms of PN/TNA), sausages, and fruit... but some of the listings rang alarm bells for me with my years of experience-- for example, cut-up fruit and sausages are both risks in a kitchen that uses eggs and treenut containing foods.

KWIM?

There are things there that the filters claim as "okay" but that the advice on the main page suggests are NOT okay due to cross-contamination avoidance advice.  So do be wary of anything that seems too good to be true. 

Let us know how it goes, too-- because this is definitely one of the better systems that I've seen in action-- provided that it works the way it is supposed to.  (That is, if dining staffers know to keep labels, etc. available and have been trained to recognize XC risks and answer questions.)

Having looked at dining services at several colleges now, I have to say that the scary thing is the colleges want to accomodate, think they can accomodate, but don`t get it.  Some of the things CM Deux pointed out are scary to me.  I cannot fathom letting dd eat vanilla ice cream (assuming she were not allergic to milk, referring only to the peanut issue) without my calling the manufacturer, and most likely it would be shared equipment with nuts.  We did find one school that does not serve any peanut or tree nut products other than a jar of pb out where the silverware is for the students.  So that school has no risk of nut cross contamination.  Unfortunately, that is not the school that is most academically compatible with dd.  The school that dd wants to go to told me that they could accomodate dd, but when I asked, they serve Thai food there, use peanut sauces, etc.  No way is she eating three meals a day in that dining hall.

And quoting maeve:
"Basically, depending on the school and its dining options, most dining halls are buffets/cafeterias and I don't let DD eat at one of those now, why would I expect her to be able to when she goes to college?"

I just can`t see how so many on this board with older kids have had their kids go safely off to college.  It seems like I am missing something.  Most of the ones I have checked don`t really understand cross contamination and how little it takes to have an epi/911 moment.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 08, 2011, 10:22:42 PM
Well, DH and I were talking about this at dinner tonight-- we both agreed that while many of us as parents might imagine a dorm living residency as the quintissential "college experience," it just isn't necessarily so for a great many college students-- even those WITHOUT food allergies.

DD is going to have to live off-campus, or at the very least be in an efficiency with some minimal kitchen facilities.  It's simply not feasible otherwise, from what we can see.

So yeah, I think that if a parent is locked into seeing college as a residential (particularly a "dorm" or "Greek" residential) living arrangement that dictates a certain type of social existence during those years, then, yes, FA is something that is going to get in the way.

We've never really considered that such a thing MIGHT be an option for DD.  Not really, anyway.  Then again, I didn't experience college that way, either.  I was a commuter, and I liked that just fine, tyvm, and it wasn't "weird" given the type of campus I was on.

Maybe we're more realistic, having been faculty and having been in/around academia for so many years (decades, really)?  I don't know.  I just know that there are a LOT of different ways to send a kid off to college, and VERY FEW of them require meals eaten in campus residence halls.

I also don't know that there have been "so many" people from this community-- yet-- who have had kids go off to college.  The old guard around here has only two members who HAVE so far, at least that come to my mind immediately-- Peg and Jana.

Lots more of us are 1-4 years away from doing so, and even larger numbers are about 6 years away.  Naturally, they're much more worried about dealing with high school and dating issues than college.  (Right now, anyway.)

  I'd say that means that colleges are just starting to see the larger numbers of kids with LTFA.

I predict, unfortunately, that the tragic incident in GA is going to be repeated a few times before colleges realize that what they THINK is enough... isn't.  Until now, they've not dealt with the new breed of super-allergic students.  That's what I suspect, anyway.  Hey, it took allergists a while to realize that kids born after ~1995 were, well, different than all the experience they'd had with allergic children up until then-- more severe reactions, more highly sensitive, and MUCH more likely to sensitize to other allergens.    FAAN is still playing catch-up with this new generation of FA kids, where the rules seem to be different.  They don't outgrow when they're supposed to, they're multiply food allergic, etc. etc.

The luckiest of them are the peanut allergic kids. Because people take that one seriously.

In this first wave, the learning curve is bound to be steep.  I personally have no problem saying that the risks aren't worth it to let them 'learn' on my kid.   :-/
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GingerPye on November 09, 2011, 08:50:07 AM
Okay, Ginger-- one thing that you'll want to be VERY careful about is that the filtering that the system does is not inclusive of cross-contamination risks.

ONLY actual ingredients, and even that isn't foolproof-- for example, "Margarine and Mayonnaise" popped up as being 'fine' even after I filtered for results that didn't contain egg...

and "ice cream, vanilla" was included when I filtered for treenuts and peanuts.

Basically, what THEY thought was safe as breakfast fare was hot/cold cereal (which, okay-- MAYbe... though I know of quite a few items there that are UNSAFE in terms of PN/TNA), sausages, and fruit... but some of the listings rang alarm bells for me with my years of experience-- for example, cut-up fruit and sausages are both risks in a kitchen that uses eggs and treenut containing foods.

KWIM?

There are things there that the filters claim as "okay" but that the advice on the main page suggests are NOT okay due to cross-contamination avoidance advice.  So do be wary of anything that seems too good to be true. 

Let us know how it goes, too-- because this is definitely one of the better systems that I've seen in action-- provided that it works the way it is supposed to.  (That is, if dining staffers know to keep labels, etc. available and have been trained to recognize XC risks and answer questions.)

Yes, I noticed that something with cheese popped up in spite of filtering out milk.  I think I will let them know this -- that it is not fool-proof.  Which I suspect the director knows -- who I have been talking with on the phone and emailing.  She seems to be very on top of food allergies and seems to understand the risks and avoiding cross-contam.  She has done everything I've asked so far.  Waiting today for her to scan and email the labels of a few food items that are not on their website.

It just seems to me, what little I know about it, that if this is what college dining is like now, it has come a LONG way in a short time.  And I agree that improvement is still needed; I'm sure we'll see that when DD goes on this school trip.

 But I'm going to trust her to double-check labels, etc before eating.  She expressed her worry last night, that even though all these things are in place, something won't be quite right.  Therefore, she will have some quickie micro meals with her if she feels that something is not safe, plus her bkfst items.  This will be her FIRST trip away from home without Mom and Dad!!  A good litmus test, I think, and hopefully a safe one.

(now going to read through the rest of the posts --- haven't read all yet)
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: ajasfolks2 on November 09, 2011, 08:52:57 AM
CM,
The last part of your post had me thinking that this is really an area where FAAN and FAI could lead the way.  They should get on the forefront of developing a good practices guidelines for colleges and universities and then offer a searchable database to FAAN members looking at colleges of those schools who participate in the program.

(My bold added for emphasis)
The operative word here is "could" . . . FAAN has been so behind the ball for so long, IMHO.

Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GingerPye on November 09, 2011, 09:07:03 AM
Okay, Ginger-- one thing that you'll want to be VERY careful about is that the filtering that the system does is not inclusive of cross-contamination risks.

ONLY actual ingredients, and even that isn't foolproof-- for example, "Margarine and Mayonnaise" popped up as being 'fine' even after I filtered for results that didn't contain egg...

and "ice cream, vanilla" was included when I filtered for treenuts and peanuts.

Basically, what THEY thought was safe as breakfast fare was hot/cold cereal (which, okay-- MAYbe... though I know of quite a few items there that are UNSAFE in terms of PN/TNA), sausages, and fruit... but some of the listings rang alarm bells for me with my years of experience-- for example, cut-up fruit and sausages are both risks in a kitchen that uses eggs and treenut containing foods.

KWIM?

There are things there that the filters claim as "okay" but that the advice on the main page suggests are NOT okay due to cross-contamination avoidance advice.  So do be wary of anything that seems too good to be true. 

Let us know how it goes, too-- because this is definitely one of the better systems that I've seen in action-- provided that it works the way it is supposed to.  (That is, if dining staffers know to keep labels, etc. available and have been trained to recognize XC risks and answer questions.)

Having looked at dining services at several colleges now, I have to say that the scary thing is the colleges want to accomodate, think they can accomodate, but don`t get it.  Some of the things CM Deux pointed out are scary to me.  I cannot fathom letting dd eat vanilla ice cream (assuming she were not allergic to milk, referring only to the peanut issue) without my calling the manufacturer, and most likely it would be shared equipment with nuts.  We did find one school that does not serve any peanut or tree nut products other than a jar of pb out where the silverware is for the students.  So that school has no risk of nut cross contamination.  Unfortunately, that is not the school that is most academically compatible with dd.  The school that dd wants to go to told me that they could accomodate dd, but when I asked, they serve Thai food there, use peanut sauces, etc.  No way is she eating three meals a day in that dining hall.

And quoting maeve:
"Basically, depending on the school and its dining options, most dining halls are buffets/cafeterias and I don't let DD eat at one of those now, why would I expect her to be able to when she goes to college?"

I just can`t see how so many on this board with older kids have had their kids go safely off to college.  It seems like I am missing something.  Most of the ones I have checked don`t really understand cross contamination and how little it takes to have an epi/911 moment.


<bold mine>
I don't know yet either, but we are only a few years away from it ourselves.  But my guess is -- the FA kids who attend college currently and are eating at the dining halls --- aren't as sensitive, perhaps, as others?  Which is my guess with my kids.  The RAST shows my kids as >100/class 6 for peanut.  But my kids have not had one single peanut reaction.  Even after being around kids in the cafeteria eating PB all the time. 

Now CM's child or someone with similar sensitivity -- in that situation -- may very well have a reaction.  I probably wouldn't put CM's child in that situation, ever.   So, it follows then that eating at a college dining hall would not work for someone with such high sensitivity.   Am I right, CM? 

Someone mentioned having the labels available for DD to read.  I will double-check that today, that they will be available. 

And she can question the person who put together the meal.  I do know that it won't be other students putting the meal together.  A supervisor will be doing it, per the director of dining hall services.  And it will be made ahead of time and put away to be kept warm/cold.  So I feel good knowing that it won't be students, no matter how careful, putting together her meals.  Not that a supervisor would be much better --- but the director has given specific instructions to this supervisor wrt handling her food, preparing her food, keeping away from other foods, using clean utensils and cooking equipment, etc.  It is standard instruction at this school, apparently, to accomodate those students with special dietary needs. 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: YouKnowWho on November 09, 2011, 09:28:16 AM
We just had a young man die here due to a cross-contaminated meal at a small-medium campus that was supposed to be aware of his milk allergies.  Combined with an epi-pen failure (needle bent) it was a series of events that led to his death.

I think the only way DS1 could be safe and eat a balanced diet at this point would be to have access to a kitchen of his own which might ultimately limit where he goes to school if we have to add in the cost of an apt as well.  Trying not to think that far in advance though.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: my3guys on November 09, 2011, 09:42:53 AM
YKW -- Your post just sent chills through me. I have no idea about any of this...as college is 9 yrs. away. However, when I think about it in those brief moments, chills. Must repeat to myself "college is 9 yrs away, college is 9 yrs. away". Maybe he will have completely outgrown milk and/or be more tolerant with egg by then.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: YouKnowWho on November 09, 2011, 09:48:43 AM
Initial story
http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/ksu-student-dies-on-1130047.html

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/ksu-students-we-werent-1133780.html
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Arkadia on November 09, 2011, 09:59:08 AM
Okay, Ginger-- one thing that you'll want to be VERY careful about is that the filtering that the system does is not inclusive of cross-contamination risks.

ONLY actual ingredients, and even that isn't foolproof-- for example, "Margarine and Mayonnaise" popped up as being 'fine' even after I filtered for results that didn't contain egg...

and "ice cream, vanilla" was included when I filtered for treenuts and peanuts.

Basically, what THEY thought was safe as breakfast fare was hot/cold cereal (which, okay-- MAYbe... though I know of quite a few items there that are UNSAFE in terms of PN/TNA), sausages, and fruit... but some of the listings rang alarm bells for me with my years of experience-- for example, cut-up fruit and sausages are both risks in a kitchen that uses eggs and treenut containing foods.

KWIM?

There are things there that the filters claim as "okay" but that the advice on the main page suggests are NOT okay due to cross-contamination avoidance advice.  So do be wary of anything that seems too good to be true. 

Let us know how it goes, too-- because this is definitely one of the better systems that I've seen in action-- provided that it works the way it is supposed to.  (That is, if dining staffers know to keep labels, etc. available and have been trained to recognize XC risks and answer questions.)

Having looked at dining services at several colleges now, I have to say that the scary thing is the colleges want to accomodate, think they can accomodate, but don`t get it.  Some of the things CM Deux pointed out are scary to me.  I cannot fathom letting dd eat vanilla ice cream (assuming she were not allergic to milk, referring only to the peanut issue) without my calling the manufacturer, and most likely it would be shared equipment with nuts.  We did find one school that does not serve any peanut or tree nut products other than a jar of pb out where the silverware is for the students.  So that school has no risk of nut cross contamination.  Unfortunately, that is not the school that is most academically compatible with dd.  The school that dd wants to go to told me that they could accomodate dd, but when I asked, they serve Thai food there, use peanut sauces, etc.  No way is she eating three meals a day in that dining hall.

And quoting maeve:
"Basically, depending on the school and its dining options, most dining halls are buffets/cafeterias and I don't let DD eat at one of those now, why would I expect her to be able to when she goes to college?"

I just can`t see how so many on this board with older kids have had their kids go safely off to college.  It seems like I am missing something.  Most of the ones I have checked don`t really understand cross contamination and how little it takes to have an epi/911 moment.

it's pretty simple. I'm not getting what the brouhaha is all about. I went away three years to ISU (Illinois State). Never ate one dorm meal (I don't have allergies, either), I lived in student housing the first two years with COMPLETE strangers. The third year, I got some smarts and an apartment on my own (still student housing). While I lived with three other roomates the first two years, we fixed all our own individual meals, I had a car, I shopped for my own food, and came home thursday afternoon to Chicago and returned on Monday morning. (I worked weekends and Friday night).

It's how they will live alone, on their own soon after, unless we plan on them living at home forever. (?)

FWIW, my parents were not very well off, I took student loans to pay for my education, they contributed, and I worked as a waitress. I double majored in the sciences. It wasn't particulary difficult to do, and even with two to three lab courses a semester, not particularly rigorous. Either you're college material or you're not. <shrug>


The biggest threat to your children on campus is hands down, booze and drugs. Booze especially. I wasn't a party girl, a science major, and rarely there on weekends and I know this. Personally, I have zero plans of sending a newly graduated highschooler off, away to school, the first year of college. It's frivolous financially (most of it pre-requisite coursework, aside from what college credits they earn during highschool), and filled with a hundred dozen ways to ruin your future. I'd teach them the meaning of a paycheck, independence, and make them earn good grades in order to finish their college education at a university first, while they are still living at home.

My two cents.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Arkadia on November 09, 2011, 10:04:32 AM



The biggest threat to your children on campus is hands down, booze and drugs. Booze especially. I wasn't a party girl, a science major, and rarely there on weekends and I know this. Personally, I have zero plans of sending a newly




oh, and SEX. It's everywhere. An orgy. Send your child away to college, and they will have sex. Pray they don't catch something deadly. Or come home pregnant, or with a girlfriend who is. It's probably one area parents of gay teens have some peace of mind, that those who don't won't. LOL.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Arkadia on November 09, 2011, 10:12:24 AM
No quoting. I recently visited a college campus on a holiday weekend.

HOLY SHEOT.

It's worse than I remember.

The groudskeeper said they literally bulldoze certain areas of beer cans and booze bottles.

If you want an eyefull, stay overnight on a weekend.....in the dorm of your choice, and stroll the "downtown" area (usually directly adjacent to campus) for the full effect.

You can raise them anyway you want, but it's a snowballs chance in hell if you plop them into that on their first "independent" grown up year, where they aren't required to do anything that isn't of their own volition. Add food allergies in there, and you're asking for a disaster. That I get. Just filling in the glaring blanks...
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 09, 2011, 10:27:32 AM
I agree with Ark on this one.  WHOLEHEARTEDLY.


Remember, y'all-- I live in just such a place-- and this is not noted as being a particular "party" school.  It's an ag and engineering school, mostly.  A vet and pharmacy school.  These are, by and large, pretty serious students who aren't there "just to party."

But there is also a healthy Greek system here, and these ARE college students we're talking about.  I use the adjective "healthy" somewhat metaphorically, of course.  Binge drinking is expected.  It kills a few of them pretty much every year, too, but again, that is relatively NORMAL for a college campus of this size.

Every single person that I know who lives within a five block radius of the route between "downtown" and the Greek houses and residence halls has had a vomiting, drunk, or passed-out college student wind up somewhere on/in their property at some point-- some of them on multiple occasions.

Some kids do fine when you send them away to college.  Some do not.  Parents generally (if they are willing to look critically at their own offspring) think that they know, deep down, whether or not a child has the capacity for this sort of behavior--

but I've known way too many "good" kids that wind up in dire straits that their parents (and professors, for that matter) NEVER in a million years would have predicted.  All it takes is one moment of bad judgement for things to snowball.

In other words, don't underestimate the potential-- no matter how responsible, law-abiding, or dutiful your child.

How does that relate to FA?

Well, in obvious ways, being impaired elevates the risk of error to levels which are frankly hair-raising.  It also makes it that much less likely that a student will be ABLE to summon assistance-- since the assumption will be that this is 'drug/alcohol' related and not anaphylaxis.  It also means that very few people AROUND your child will be in any position to assist with anything.  Ever.

Parents greatly overestimate the amount of adult oversight that college students will have.  In dorms or otherwise.
 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GingerPye on November 09, 2011, 10:41:49 AM
I'm SO GLAD to have all these replies here.  Thanks, everyone.  You've helped me see where some of the holes are wrt my daughter and this trip. 

Yes, booze, drugs, sex, and rock and roll are going to be big in college.  That's a whole 'nother ball of wax.   

Anyway,  I am happy about the strides made at some college campuses, more than I had thought.  I originally thought for years that DD would be doing the apartment thing.  I figured there was no other way.  Now, dorm living might be possible.  But I am still not convinced yet for DD -- need to see what college she ends up at and go from there.  And I know that it's not a requirement to live in dorms.  I had some great times in the dorms -- but I also had some great times in apartments when I got to grad school.  So I agree that dorm-living is not needed.

(gotta go for now)  Thanks for all the thoughts.   :yes:
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GoingNuts on November 09, 2011, 05:27:20 PM
College is 9 months away.  :hiding:
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on November 09, 2011, 06:57:00 PM
Well, until recently, even a year ago, I thought I would just make sure that dd goes to a college nearby and lives at home.  But when your child hits 10th grade and gets their 10th grade PSAT scores, then if their scores are very high, they start getting the recruitment letters.  Tons of them.  I have thrown away dozens and dozens.  And then I realize that I am depriving my child of an opportunity to attend dozens of excellent colleges by forcing her to pick one where she lives at home.  The fact that I was depriving her of an opportunity that she would have if not for the food allergies is not something I anticipated.  I didn`t anticipate feeling guilty for telling her that she must attend a school close enough to live at home, because she has LFTA.  The reality hits when your kid reads the letters from all the schools that want them and you have to tell your kid that you won`t let them go due to the allergies and your child looks so sad.  If your kid works hard to have a high enough GPA, test scores,  community service, and extracurricular activities that will get them into almost any school, then I really believe that they deserve to go.  She works so hard that it makes it very very difficult to tell her that she can only go to a few schools, not the ones that are too far to live at home.  I am not sure I am there yet.  It is much harder than you could imagine, when you really have to do it. 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 09, 2011, 10:45:57 PM
I really do understand what you're saying, there, Carefulmom. (Seriously-- I was a NMS semifinalist, so I know what you mean by "ton" of recruitment letters...  you mean literally.  Tonnage.  LOL)

Remember, we've got a kid like that, too-- only we have an extra reason to say "no way" in her chronological age.  But believe me, GT parents wonder why on EARTH we wouldn't want to ship her off to a residential program at some university for the summer already...  <shudders>  At 18, will we be ready for her to live away from home?  I think so, yes.  It will be hard, no question.  But I trust her to be able to manage her own allergies-- provided that she can do the managing HERSELF.  The fewer people involved in making safety decisions FOR her the better.  So I don't really see a communal living situation as being very feasible, no.

The thing that I guess I'd be weighing is whether or not it is possible for a child with a LTFA to have a normative and INCLUSIVE college experience at a particular campus and still be safe.

If one "must" live on campus or in a sorority house to be a PART of the campus and experience the institution the way pretty much ALL (or even most) of one's peers and alums do... then that probably isn't a campus which is a very good fit for a child with a LTFA.  A commuter campus is a better fit because the experience that a person with a LTFA can have there is-- well, not "abnormal" relative to peers.

That isn't to say that the answer is "no."  It isn't that simple, really.  It's that the answer is; "while your friends are chowing down at the sorority house on whatever the house COOK has made, you'll be making your own dinner at your apartment.  Is it still the college experience that you are imagining as part of going to 'Dream U.' or is being part of that group of sorority sisters part of the dream?" 


I can't wave a magic wand and make the LTFA go away, after all.  Would I want to??  Of course.  But that isn't going to happen. 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: ajasfolks2 on November 10, 2011, 12:55:11 AM
Haven't re-read the whole thread tonite, but think this was discussed earlier in this thread?

Used to be (when I was at university, late 70's early 80's) that many colleges and universities had rule that the first two years ALL underclassmen HAD to live on campus in dorms, unless the student lived at home or was married.

At the schools where I was, that dorm living meant nearly no way to store or make own food.  (We could have mini-refrig in room, but no cooking then allowed EXCEPT in the one communal kitchen on the dorm floor -- all shared pans/utensils . . . oh, the roaches . . . filthy.) You had choice to eat at dorms/cafeterias on campus or to eat out every meal in off-campus, nearby restaurant.  (Unless, of course, you were invited over to somebody's house to eat . . . either an upperclassmen or family of student who lived locally.)

Just thinking that *if* this were case at particular school that LTFA child attends this day and age, then it would be crucial that the LTFA student was given accommodation to be relieved from this mandate and allowed to live off campus, or be authorized to get one of the few "apartment" type dorm set ups with cooking.

~ ~ ~

Lots of Ark's posts'content above that I channel.  (And CM's, and others . . . )

~ ~ ~

I'll be honest, in 5 - 6 years who knows how "university" or college ed is going to be shaped:  much of the first year or two may be possible online/cyber and NOT with requirement of rump-in-seat . . . combine that option with the astronomical cost (unless, of course, one has great scholarships) . . . and I see the face of the 4-year degree radically changing.  Please note that this is NOT about me keeping my kids close to me or more supervised -- just what I think may be a direction that the degree path could take for many kids, not just my own.


Just some of my random thoughts on this topic.

Title: Re: College Related
Post by: GingerPye on November 10, 2011, 07:56:22 AM
Just thinking of the university/town where I went for undergrad . . . now, there are far more apartment buildings than dorms or greek houses.  It's amazing how many apartment buildings there are and there are more springing up.  There is a great campus bus system and it is fairly easy to ride your bike around town (even in the snow!).  It's a town that doubles its population when the students are there.  But I look at all of those apt buildings and am stunned that there are enough students to fill them.  They seem to be a very popular housing option now for students.

The largest dorm there also has remodeled and instead of dorm rooms, there are dorm suites with kitchens.  3-4 students share a suite. 
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Arkadia on November 10, 2011, 09:13:30 AM
Well, until recently, even a year ago, I thought I would just make sure that dd goes to a college nearby and lives at home.  But when your child hits 10th grade and gets their 10th grade PSAT scores, then if their scores are very high, they start getting the recruitment letters.  Tons of them.  I have thrown away dozens and dozens.  And then I realize that I am depriving my child of an opportunity to attend dozens of excellent colleges by forcing her to pick one where she lives at home.  The fact that I was depriving her of an opportunity that she would have if not for the food allergies is not something I anticipated.  I didn`t anticipate feeling guilty for telling her that she must attend a school close enough to live at home, because she has LFTA.  The reality hits when your kid reads the letters from all the schools that want them and you have to tell your kid that you won`t let them go due to the allergies and your child looks so sad.  If your kid works hard to have a high enough GPA, test scores,  community service, and extracurricular activities that will get them into almost any school, then I really believe that they deserve to go.  She works so hard that it makes it very very difficult to tell her that she can only go to a few schools, not the ones that are too far to live at home.  I am not sure I am there yet.  It is much harder than you could imagine, when you really have to do it.

No quoting.

this sounds so poignant until you're the one cleaning blood and bone fragments from a gaping face wound on a freshman who reeks of cheap alcohol, while the organ bank sets up. You know, while their head is being held together by kerlix. That's not specific, that's general. That's a picture rolled into ER's nightly. Early morning, even.

It's just another red herring as to why society *thinks* we should be shoving kids to the front of the line. I maintain that grades, paper accomplishments and accolades mean squat when determining whether an young adult is *fit* for experential living on a college campus.

Hell, smart kids probably are probably more prone to thinking they are invincible. Our society is so sheltered, so sterile, kids don't learn to be adults until much, much later than expected.

Guaranteed asynchronous development. High achievers probably being more sheltered than the rest.

But, especially when you consider what pitfalls are available that never were back in the day. Hell, I didn't even have a cellphone, palmsize connection to every evil available, instant access, and now, it's considered the status quo. Twitter me/Sext me that, batman. 

Are the credit card companies still allowed in the Student Union? <shudder>

Cuz you won't have control over anything remotely related to that.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 10, 2011, 10:11:39 AM
... and to add to that, there is definitely peer-reviewed science that now suggests that the HIGHEST ability students may, really and truly, have the slowest executive function maturation curves.

Asynchrony, indeed.

Anyway.

I still think, though, that parents who REALLY know their own kids well are likely (with other adults who know them outside of the context of parents) the best judge of which kids are likely to succeed (like my DH) and which are likely to fail (his brother).  Some kids really do have better judgment than others at 18-22 yo, but some of them are just luckier than others, too.

It's hard, hard, HARD to ignore the pull of the Ivy league when it's your own kid.  It is.  It's hard even for parents like my DH and I, and we KNOW that most of that shimmer isn't really gold.  So what will we do when Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, and MIT come calling for DD?  I don't really know.  From three years out, I can honestly say that I think that we won't be star-struck by it.  But I don't know for sure.  I remember very well the sheer allure of thinking that little old ME was "Ivy League" material... I was dazzled.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on November 10, 2011, 12:19:27 PM
Well, you all bring up a really good point.  I trust dd and she has shown great judgment, but what about her friends?  It was brought up at the FAAN Conference in the Teen Session about what if you are at a party and you need your epi, are unable to self administer, and your friend who knows how is drunk?  Actually, dd has two friends who were epi trained in middle school, and now at age 16 they seem pretty unstable.  Of course, all this could happen if she is living at home---it is not like she will be locked up in her room when she is not attending classes.  She could still go to a party and her friends get drunk.  That could even happen now in high school.  But at least I would be nearby if something happens.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 10, 2011, 12:53:04 PM
 :yes:  Exactly.  Our kids have to maintain a bit of a margin for error even with close friends.  The bottom line is that nobody else is going to wind up dead from a food-related mistake.  Just DD.  So no matter how much her friends love her and treasure her (and they do), it just isn't necessarily enough for her because it really isn't "real" to them.  Not really.  Therefore, we've really stressed to her that if she drinks-- even ONE drink-- she must not eat anything afterwards.  Because her judgment is impaired at that point.  Better not to drink at all, but if she does, she needs to have a complete plan for her own personal safety in place-- and then she needs to follow it to the letter.  That plan should NOT depend on other people's discretion or cooperation.  Of course, that is really just an extension of how LTFA teens already have to exist.  It's just that at the moment, she knows that she can always call us on her cell and we will come to her aid-- no questions asked.



The largest difference between "nearby" college and "far away" is that at the latter, there will be virtually NO safety net unless you have extended family or close friends who live nearby.  Someone off-campus that your child could go to in an emergency-- someone that first responders or campus officials could call locally.

Otherwise, they'll call YOU (250, 500, 1000, or even 3000 miles away) to "notify" you of problems with the law or of a hospital admission, at least one that takes place from the campus.  Probably.  The college, by the way, may not call, preferring to avoid dealing with parents at all under such circumstances.  I have personally known students who were assaulted in parking lots whose parents were not notified, as well as students who were expelled from the institution for academic (or other) reasons whose parents were clueless until it had already happened.   

Bottom line-- PARENTS calling the campus with concerns are probably (also) going to be met with stonewalling.  Polite stonewalling, no doubt; but that is what it will be.  The institution's hands are tied legally once a student is 18 years old.



Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on November 10, 2011, 01:08:55 PM
But what if your dd has a reaction from the drink itself and needs her epi?  And alcohol does not come with an ingredient label.  I have no idea what wine is safe or unsafe from a peanut/tree nut standpoint.  Not like I want dd to be drinking at age 16, but I/she will really need to know this at some point.  So CM Deux, about your rule for your dd, aren`t you worried about her needing her epipen from a reaction to whatever she drank?  I have no idea if any alcohol is or isn`t safe---vodka, tequila, etc.  I may have mentioned that dd at 15 had a friend (one of her two unstable epi trained friends) who made a margarita for another girl at her house.  I know that I looked at Kahlua one time, because I was baking a chocolate cake that called for Kahlua.  I saw that there was a tree nut kind, and decided that the non-tree nut one was probably cross contaminated.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: CMdeux on November 10, 2011, 01:48:02 PM
Again-- exactly.

Most "beers" are probably going to be fairly safe... but liqueurs, wine, and liquor?  Mixed drinks?

Not with DD's allergens.   :-/

I really hate that her allergy means that this is yet another thing that she'll never be able to do as spontaneously as her peers-- if only because it is yet another way in which she's been excluded socially and set apart.  Then again, it's more normative now to simply not drink at all.  That's actually the angle that we're trying to sell her on.  That being the person who DOESN'T drink means that she'll automatically not be at the mercy of others-- ever.



Sort of like a lot of cosmetics, this angle we've used...

"Why would you want to {use/do whatever it is} anyway??  Isn't that faintly-- er, or more thna faintly, come to that-- RIDICULOUS?"

Hair dye seems to be the only thing she really seems pretty convinced that she truly wants to do.

Ergo, she needs to see what goes into making that kind of judgment call.  It's a LOT of work to do the legwork and investigate product safety, and one doesn't always get much in the way of information even with all of that work.  Sometimes, it just isn't worth it to bother in the first place-- it's just easier to abstain.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on November 10, 2011, 03:33:52 PM
It really bugs me that alcohol does not require an ingredient label.  Hair dye I can sort of understand.  Ignorant people may think that as long as you don`t eat or drink it, you don`t need to worry about what is in it.  But alcohol, if you are going to drink it and you have LTFA, you obviously need to know what is in it.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Janelle205 on November 10, 2011, 03:42:04 PM
Alcohol not having an ingredient label really irritates me as well - luckily, the few companies that I have contacted about safety have been very helpful, but this is only my experience.

Please remember to advise your students that even if a liquor or other mixer is safe, at college parties, large batches tend to be mixed in whatever vessel is available - you know, like trash can punch.  I wouldn't have a mixed drink at any party that I didn't mix myself or watch an actual bartender make - and even then, there are restrictions.

Also, things get spilled at bars/parties - If I was as allergic to apples in college as I am now, I would have been terrified at a few of the bars that we frequented that had specialty apple drinks.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Arkadia on November 10, 2011, 06:00:16 PM
Ive bartended. Bar glasses are f.i.l.t.h.y.

Ive also seen the wine rack TEAMING WITH FRUIT FLIES.

I drink bottled beer only. Skip the glass.

Title: Re: College Related
Post by: kouturekat on November 12, 2011, 08:40:40 AM

The luckiest of them are the peanut allergic kids. Because people take that one seriously.


I feel that really is true.  That is Ryan's only FA at the present time, and I had to work with food services at our university's local cafeteria when he attended baseball camp two years in a row.  I spoke with the manager, discussed the procedure for him eating there (which initially scared the daylights out of me), he met with the manager on both first days and he walked Ryan through his "safe" eating choices.

I do think it's probably safest for a PA child than any other FA kid.  PA's have received so much attention, in a way I felt the school was able to cater to his needs safer than any other FA. 

That being said, I told Ryan that no place is 100% safe.  Be aware, be safe, have those epi's.  Because, after all, sometimes people think they know about food allergies but really don't.   Even though he was guided to the safest food choices, they are just that.  The safest ones, not necessarily 100% safe.  If my child were milk and egg allergic, then forget about it.  It's just all over the place.  I can't imagine.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: Carefulmom on November 12, 2011, 09:42:46 AM
We just had a young man die here due to a cross-contaminated meal at a small-medium campus that was supposed to be aware of his milk allergies.  Combined with an epi-pen failure (needle bent) it was a series of events that led to his death.

I think the only way DS1 could be safe and eat a balanced diet at this point would be to have access to a kitchen of his own which might ultimately limit where he goes to school if we have to add in the cost of an apt as well.  Trying not to think that far in advance though.

YKW, are you able to find any articles that say it was a milk cross contaminated item?  I can`t find any.  Since dd is allergic to milk, I really need to know--was milk an ingredient or was it cross contaminated.
Title: Re: College Related
Post by: YouKnowWho on November 14, 2011, 04:02:51 PM
I will search again tomorrow on the local tv show links and see what I can find.  I know it was milk and I know it said cross contaminated but the other part is I am wondering if it was from my local board as the spokeswoman who mentioned posts there as well.  That one can take awhile to search.