looks like i am going to need some 504 help.
ds now in HS and his plan was reviewed and updated end of 8th grade and transferred to HS. I have attempted to follow up with different people regarding the plan and have been told that they are reviewed (was this past tues) and I'll get a signed copy in the mail.
I spoke with assist. principal about cafeteria and he pretty much said, well we have many students with lta, none consider eating in cafe. are you sure blah blah.
I have a somewhat productive conversation with him (he ate at ms cafeteria) after mentioning that he does have a 504 plan. So, he gets the info for me and i'm comfortable to let him eat there.
yesterday, my ds goes to the nurse to give her his updated excuse from PE. She says OH. You're the FAMOUS (son's name)! says, yeah well we reviewed your 504 plan yesterday and you need to tell your mom to call me. Its very Ele men tary. You're a big boy now blah blah.
Today, I get an email from another Assist. Principal that is asking me to come in to meet with the "team". Two dates for next week are given, with a request for "documentation" from his doctor, with a diagnosis and doctor recommended accomodations.
I call to make the appt. she calls back .
Long story short, she tells me that the school has policies already in place. (you all already know where this whole thing is heading, I'm sure).
I tell her that I will have the doctor put a current date on the letter that is already on file since nothing has changed since the letter was written/submitted in 2005. she says they need "more" and I should include his testing numbers.
then she tells me that accommodations must be doctor approved/recommended.
Then she asks if there is a "learning" concern (with the tone of learning needs to be affected)
So, I say who will be at the meeting that is certified to interpret/understand his allergy scores? she tells me the nurse.
At this point, I pretty much hand her a can of whoop a** and quickly address those points and we have a pretty heated exchange. I could hear her back down a tiny bit because she couldtell that I wasn't going to be intimidated by her.
So, in an email she wrote at 9:05am, she gave me two dates, 9/18 & 9/19. not even 45 minutes later, she gives me 10/9 or 10/10. I say, I'll take 9/18....she tells me the date is now taken. I say oh really. in 45 minutes two days of appt. are now gone? Are you sure?
So, then I insist she follow the plan until then, that she personally makesure his teachers are aware of his health concerns, that he is fully included etc. I ask who his delegates are and if he knows.
Going to be ugly. I can feel it. Now, I can't find his updated plan. looking everywhere for it. I guess that if she wants to give me a hard time, she can go right ahead. I do need a refresher...will be happy to hear input and I'll be reading in school resources a lot the next few weeks.
Oh, I'm there with you, although we didn't have to do all that to keep the 504. We were just insistent. :)
But I did some brush-up reading before the meeting. I looked at our case statement to remember the major life activities we highlighted and to be able to speak to why any of them would be relevant. So--be conversant in the major life activities that are affected by your son's disability.
I became familiar with the vocabulary again.
I read the OCR page.
I read the Rehabilitation Act.
I read the ADAA.
I read the 504 Links and Tips
I reread Rhonda's advocacy stuff--google 504 primer, and a key page will come up.
Stinky's thread (I sent her our stuff when she started going through her process, and she took it much farther). Read in particular her responses to the school attorney.
I'm sooooo glad I did some reading in advance. I was prepared.
Our HS doesn't do 504s for FAs (we were told otherwise). They wanted my DS to handle things a certain way, if you'll remember. They were adamant. I made the comparison with another disability.
I was in a very similar emotional place two weeks ago. ((hugs))
Egads, why does it have to be so hard?
Remember:
You want him to have this in college (I told our school that, too)
His condition hasn't changed.
He qualifies for a 504; you don't have to address need.
:heart:
:yes: What she said.
Last spring, recall, I went several rounds with our 504C who wanted to call our review meeting an "eligibility" meeting.
I sought out written clarification on that point, stating that since the condition and its management had not changed substantially in the preceding 6 years, there seemed no basis for any reevaluation of ELIGIBILITY.
I won that point, by the way. There was a lot of backpedaling in a hurry when I went into documentation mode and insisted on a written explanation of why "eligibility" was in need of review.
The other reasons why we MUST have a 504 plan in high school are:
a) seeking accommodations both in college (as noted above), and
b) seeking accomodations from ACT/The College Board-- which you WILL need if you plan to have your student have the ability to keep medication with them during the SAT or an AP exam.
In both instances, other agencies, unfamiliar with the student, pay very close attention to how the condition is handled by the school.
Thankyou! Cm thank you too reminding me of sat etc. I cant believe I basically sailed through Elem and Ms and now they are going to give me trouble. It is a different district but didn't expect trouble
In CA my son took the SAT twice and neither time did they question him about his Epi-Pen. He has an Epi holder that hangs from his belt.
I don't know if you rememer or not, but my school district decided at one point they were getting rid of all 504 plans and replacing them with action plans. I refused to budge, got lots of help here drafting a letter and the tone of conversation shifted from first names to Mrs. ****. In the end, I think my ds is the only one to still have a 504. I will find the letter for you .
Here is part of the conversation here...
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.html (http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/504faq.html)
15. Once a student is identified as eligible for services under Section 504, is that student always entitled to such services?
Yes, as long as the student remains eligible. The protections of Section 504 extend only to individuals who meet the regulatory definition of a person with a disability. If a recipient school district re-evaluates a student in accordance with the Section 504 regulatory provision at 34 C.F.R. 104.35 and determines that the student's mental or physical impairment no longer substantially limits his/her ability to learn or any other major life activity, the student is no longer eligible for services under Section 504.
Per our conversation on _____ date at ______ location, I was given the impression by you that a district employed physician would like to remove my child's 504 designation.
As stated in ______ section of the 504 law, a child's 504 designation cannot be removed unless the child's medical status has changed. (put the direct quote here) I will refer to the copies attached of the physician's letter you have on file already regarding my child's disability. My child's status has not changed, therefore his 504 designation should not be modified.
Since the district's physician has never met my child, nor is he my child's personal physician, I have to question the intentions and credentials of this district employed physician. Is he a board certified allergist? How many years of allergy training has the physician had? Where did he perform his allergy fellowship? What are his credentials that qualify him to override my child's personal specialists recommendations for safety during the school day?
Could you please confirm to me in writing that this is still the case and that the district will not be considering illegally removing my child's 504 designation? (this part probably needs to be re-worded but you get the gist)
Thank you.
Quote from: chase on September 14, 2012, 09:22:19 AM
In CA my son took the SAT twice and neither time did they question him about his Epi-Pen. He has an Epi holder that hangs from his belt.
Yes,
most test proctors won't give a kid any trouble--
but 'most' there very definitely does NOT mean "all."
This is also why the ADA recommends strongly that students with diabetes get accommodations through College Board. Because it is effectively at the largesse of the test proctors on the day of, otherwise.
Momma2boys: bowing low. That is brilliant.
Actual letter....
Per our conversation on Monday, ********* outside your office, I was given the impression by you that a district employed physician would like to remove all district 504 designations. I'm deeply concerned about the legality of this.
According to 504 law and the Office of Civil Rights, a child's 504 designation cannot be removed unless the child's medical status has changed. I will refer to the copies of the physician's letter you have on file already regarding my child's disability. My child's status has not changed, therefore his 504 designation should not be modified.
Since the district's physician has never met my child, nor is he my child's personal physician, I have to question the physician's ability to diagnose or offer specific advice regarding the management of my child's complex, life-threatening medical condition. Is he a board certified allergist? How many years of allergy training has the physician had? Where did he perform his allergy fellowship? What are the credentials that qualify him to override my child's personal accommodations for safety during the school day?
I was also under the impression from our discussion that the district is seeking to reduce district expenses by removing my child's aide. Although I can understand the need to trim costs during such trying economic times, we have already had the 504 meeting for the Sept **** school year. The aide has been agreed upon as a necessary accommodation. This year will be his final year with an aide and is being used to evaluate the transition before he is alone. I am not willing to experiment with his safety without someone qualified to treat him close by. Furthermore, I do not consider a demonstration of the practice Epi-pen and passing it around the room as sufficient training of staff to leave him in that situation. Mrs. **** is familiar with his reaction history and symptoms and is there to treat him immediately, rather than wait for the nurse. Her only concern is him, not the other 24 students in the class, causing a teacher to miss what may be the start of a reaction. ***** had a severe reaction while at home, requiring emergency transport, in the safety of his own home, so I can guarantee you he has no "false sense of security" in school. In all actuality, he is more frightened than ever of having a reaction. I expect that Mrs. ***** will be with my child again this year as his aide. Could you please confirm to me in writing that this is still the case and that the district will not be considering illegally removing my child's 504 designation.
I have contacted the Office of Civil Rights and The Department of Justice ADA Information Line regarding this situation, and would request we wait to meet until I have further information from them.
Thank you.
Macabre, thank you, but I had a lot of help from members here. Let me tell you, it did the trick too!
Yup. Crisp and right to the point. :thumbsup: Works like a charm to just "rephrase and reflect" their own implications back at them. In writing, of course.
Two things that might be most helpful:
1) ADAA 2009 Amendment that states that LTFA *is* a qualifying condition for Section 504
2) OCR Letter to Gloucester
Be sure you have these documents for meeting...or share in advance if you are writing them a letter.
Interesting that High Schools try to revoke the 504 Plan, yet colleges are fine with it and understand the need for accomodations.
I really don't like the condescending attitude of your nurse, to the child or parent. :disappointed:
Also, think backwards about accomodations you need (e.g., sports practices/games, field trips etc) and why the 504 is necessary.
Rainbow, does ADAA actually specify LTFA, or does it broaden the scope of major life activiies so that it's easier to draw that circle around ltfas--including addressing mitigating measures and episodic conditions?
Mfamom--i could be mistaken, but when I went looking for specific mention of ltfas I couldn't find it. But look for yourself--just want to make sure you can know before the meeting.
Also, please read this really excellent article. See the new cases that involve OCR ruling on affecting learning. The whole thing is good to read in terms if a clear overview and case histories.
http://www.wisbar.org/am/template.cfm?section=wisconsin_lawyer&template=/cm/contentdisplay.cfm&contentid=92733 (http://www.wisbar.org/am/template.cfm?section=wisconsin_lawyer&template=/cm/contentdisplay.cfm&contentid=92733)
I have seen something that explained that LTFA and Diabetes are examples of medical conditions that qualify for 504 under ADAA...and that in fact, the purpose of amending ADAA was to clarify that these conditions would be covered. And I believe what I saw was pretty official....might've been from OCR itself. check OCR website for explanation or if not there, maybe we can ask Wrightslaw this question. If we do, please thank them for making a huge difference to LTFA community by posting their opinion on "When a school district denies 504 for peanut allergy":
http://www.wrightslaw.com/blog/?p=58 (http://www.wrightslaw.com/blog/?p=58)
Here you go - from FAAN (actually on their website now - took them how long?!)
http://www.foodallergy.org/page/504-plan (http://www.foodallergy.org/page/504-plan)
"The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights lists allergy is an example of a hidden disability for the purpose of Section 504, and also further explains how a food allergy, for many children, would be considered a disability under 504.
So then if you go to OCR's website, somewhere in their documentation, there should be that example of life threatening allergies. I believe it is listed along w/ diabetes as another example.
Excellent explanation of case law that appplies:
http://www.obkcg.com/article.asp?a=338 (http://www.obkcg.com/article.asp?a=338)
Yes--I've seen it on OCR's site--grateful they drew that line specifically and <blushing> I was the one who let Wright's Law know about the Gloucester case (for a while it was the PDF I scanned on my scanner that they used on their website).
But a couple of weeks ago before my school meeting I went looking for the specific mention in the ADAAA--because I thought it was there, too. And I couldn't see it.
I just wanted to make sure MFAmom doesn't make the claim in a school meeting that it's there, because I don't want her school to have any opportunity to undercut her.
:)
not sure what types of accommodations he needs....
sports
bus to and from school?
cafeteria
classroom projects/labs involving food?
some things also, emergency planning. the school is ginormous. definitely wouldn't want him walking to the nurse alone (or probably at all if reaction suspected)
You would want the nurse to come to him in that case.
What about things like prom? Other PTA or school based events?
You may want a plan for safe food/snacks in case of an extended lock down.
Can someone help me understand something about 504 in HS / applying to college?
When applying to (public) colleges, do you have to declare the 504 for Food Allergies? Do colleges then group 504 Plans into "special ed" applications?
When applying to private colleges, do they ignore applications of applicants with 504s?
My impression is that while Elem schools are on board with LTFA, and perhaps middle schools, High schools think the kids are "old enough" and "on their own" and "can manage their allergies". I don't think they fully get the EMERGENCY nature of accidental ingestion and that it can be common, and that teenagers are at risk with peer pressure etc. (though perhaps more of this occurs outside of school). I'm just wondering, if they really think the kid is "on his/her own" anyway, if the 504 ACTUALLY adds value at the HS age, and realistically, it comes with some risks with respect to college applications.
Now, I get the impression that UNIVERSITIES are more in tune with 504 due to cafeterias and wide range of allergy needs. They seem to "get it" and I've seen articles regarding how some universities handle LTFA (on their websites and in press) and how they recognize this need and provide meal accomodations etc. But that is once the child is THERE...I'm just wondering more about whether LTFA highlighted with a 504 (implying more serious than the laid-back denial or "mild" allergy types) impacts the application process.
Sorry to hijack. Just thought it was somewhat relevant to this thread.
To answer the question, I"d focus on major accomodations only (ie, location of Epipens, emergency protocols, sports coverage w/ trained staff member).
Well, my perspective is that (from a college faculty perspective, mind) as a faculty member, you CANNOT offer accommodations to a student unless:
a) the accommodation is an 'at will' thing that ALL students have the opportunity to use/do, and/or
b) the student has a disability and you've been notified of it officially by the university.
So what does that mean?
It means that if I have a student who needs to leave during an exam in order to deal with a contact reaction... if b) above is not true, that student has just forfeited any reasonable right to make up the exam since I wouldn't be able to extend that to just ANY student who walked out of an exam. KWIM?
It also means that a student cannot request "alternative materials" without having a compelling disability-related reason. (And yes, even in college, there ARE times when FA's are a concern-- nuts are a common lab material in particular upper division chem/physics coursework, believe it or not).
Some faculty are naturally more "inclusive" or "flexible" than others, of course-- and in the flexible cases, that may mean that you can make your own accommodations as needed... but it also can mean that you're constantly dodging food that your classmates bring in, too.
Also-- if you want to be SURE of keeping your meds accessible to you during AP, ACT, or SAT settings, be aware that an active and strong 504 plan is essential. They won't talk to you without one, basically.
Colleges and Universities are prevented by Federal law from using disability as a consideration during admissions-- with some very narrow exceptions (Gallaudet, etc).
Most have clear statements of non-discrimination somewhere on their admissions pages.
Could housing issues be covered under a 504 as well? I know many schools here require freshmen to live on campus in suites sans cooking facilities. Obviously with certain allergies, only having access to the cafeteria is okay but unless you have a Disney chef guaranteeing balanced uncontaminated meals this could be potentially an issue. (Thinking ahead to college with a gluten/egg allergic child is harder for me than just my peanut allergic child - thankfully neither of them want to leave home yet ;D).
Exactly, YKW.
The college can't make an exception "just because" or they'd need to do it for anyone that asked... and really, at that point, why have the policy to start with, YK??
Had meltdown. Right in the lobby. :hiding:
I've been asking for this meeting since August. Finally received an email early sept. giving me two options for an appt 3rd or 4th tue in Sept.
I called the woman immediately, had a heated exchange and suddenly those appts not open. She gave me an appt for last tues, called the day before and canceled it.
We re scheduled for today. I got there and the secretary came out and told me first that they had called to cancel it. I denied ever getting a call, an email or anything, she admitted that they'd "OOPS" double booked the appt
somehow in her explanation she mentioned that "eligibility meetings" blah blah.
I said this is NOT an eligibility meeting. she tells me yes, it is. I say show me a copy of the letter you sent to make me aware of the meeting....
He already has eligibility.
she says, dear, its new here. your eligibiity was for XX district. This school is a different district.
I ask again for the copy of the letter she would have sent. Then, she says something else that is untrue and I unloaded on her telling her I am not trying to shoot the messenger, but that she can pass the message to mrs. XX that I am not happy about this and I'm more unhappy that this school is lacking in organization and understanding of the laws as they apply to my child and his plan.
she finally admits that the 504 stuff was thrown in this lady's lap 2 school years ago and they are still trying to "understand" the process and organize better with the appts.
I told her I want an appt. sooner than later, not next tuesday, not the 4th Tuesday of November, NOW as in tomorrow and no later than Friday. I told her that she should tell mrs. XX to be ready for me.
OMG still shaking and angry.
Quote from: YouKnowWho on October 16, 2012, 11:35:02 AM
Could housing issues be covered under a 504 as well? I know many schools here require freshmen to live on campus in suites sans cooking facilities. Obviously with certain allergies, only having access to the cafeteria is okay but unless you have a Disney chef guaranteeing balanced uncontaminated meals this could be potentially an issue. (Thinking ahead to college with a gluten/egg allergic child is harder for me than just my peanut allergic child - thankfully neither of them want to leave home yet ;D).
Yes, I've heard it does cover housing issues...ie, if the student needs to prepare own food, they can be exempted from dorm requirement.
Oh wow, Mfamom. They can't decline eligibility without a change in child's medical status, can they?
I think you'll win this later in the week, because you are more organized than they are ;)
But bring the relevant documents: ADAA, OCR Letter to Gloucester, etc.
Quote from: CMdeux on October 16, 2012, 10:59:34 AM
Well, my perspective is that (from a college faculty perspective, mind) as a faculty member, you CANNOT offer accommodations to a student unless:
a) the accommodation is an 'at will' thing that ALL students have the opportunity to use/do, and/or
b) the student has a disability and you've been notified of it officially by the university.
So what does that mean?
It means that if I have a student who needs to leave during an exam in order to deal with a contact reaction... if b) above is not true, that student has just forfeited any reasonable right to make up the exam since I wouldn't be able to extend that to just ANY student who walked out of an exam. KWIM?
It also means that a student cannot request "alternative materials" without having a compelling disability-related reason. (And yes, even in college, there ARE times when FA's are a concern-- nuts are a common lab material in particular upper division chem/physics coursework, believe it or not).
Some faculty are naturally more "inclusive" or "flexible" than others, of course-- and in the flexible cases, that may mean that you can make your own accommodations as needed... but it also can mean that you're constantly dodging food that your classmates bring in, too.
Also-- if you want to be SURE of keeping your meds accessible to you during AP, ACT, or SAT settings, be aware that an active and strong 504 plan is essential. They won't talk to you without one, basically.
Interesting and all true...but wondering how savvy colleges really are with this. I've heard of it more related to housing and food services.
Also wondering if *private* colleges comply...and if there is quiet discrimination (ie, taking students with allergies but not the ones w/ 504 Plans because those must be "more serious" or living in bubbles or have helicopter parents...)
The organizational structure is such it would be difficult to form some sort of exclusion through collusion. Most professors have nothing to do with admissions although obviously some do, additionally it's going to be staff positions that oversee much of the ADAA implementation and those specific personnel most likely have nothing to do with admissions. Even faculty is stratafied... the profs just want everything completed by the time you hit their radar no exceptions. Not to mention some graduate students are also employees. That's just not how I perceive the beehive functioning to either want or be able to exclude based on individual disability. If anything you come to university with impeccable credentials all else is negotiable. BUT you must become a top notch bureaucrat to make sure all is documented in a correct and timely manner to preserve academic standing should the disability affect it.
MfaMom, these new people are going to need the slow grind into submission. Hang tight, it might call for outlasting them they seem big on distraction and manipulation. Wish I could do something to help.
MFA, when you change districts, you do have another elligibility meeting. That's the one instance when an IEP would transfer and a 504 wouldn't.
Now when we moved, TECHNICALLY on paper that first meeting was an elligibility meeting for the district. They just decided to sign off on all of that and move directly to accommodations rather than reinvent the wheel. There was a chance that they could have scrapped his 504 plan and insisted on the IHP only. In that case I would have probably wigged out as you did and ended up in due process if they couldn't figure it out.
We also had another elligibility meeting this past spring simply as a paperwork update because somewhere between second and third grade the district's actual 504 paper trail was LOST due to a number of retirements. :misspeak: They all still called it a 504 and had everything spelled out, and I had an older out of date copy, but our paper trail was incorrect. So all we did was put everything back onto the right legal papers.
Just be logical with them. He's already been deemed elligible in one district. His medical condition didn't change. He changed towns. That's it. Keep reminding them of that.
I thought once he's been deemed eligible, he would not be "ineligible" unless his condition changed?
two hs make up the district he's in now. they are a bunch of dim wits.
to boot, a month ago I patiently accepted the early october appt slot, but with the understanding that his plan that was forwarded from MS would be distributed to his teachers so they are aware in the interim.
Guess what? today, my son walked into Biology class with a lab that included all sorts of different food. the lab involved testing food for sugar, starch and fat.
So, my ds had to raise his hand during the pre lab time and ask what the food is, blah blah. The teacher did not know he has food allergies.
Fortunately, the foods did not include anything with nuts or that seemed risky, but it was an interruption to the teacher and a whole exchange in front of class, yeah I have food allergies. Oh, what are you allergic to? etc.
I'm pretty mad right now.
Quote from: rainbow on October 16, 2012, 08:32:34 AM
<snip> I'm just wondering, if they really think the kid is "on his/her own" anyway, if the 504 ACTUALLY adds value at the HS age, and realistically, it comes with some risks with respect to college applications. <snip>
I wouldn't disclose the allergy during the application process. It's not relevant to assessing whether the student is academically suited to the university. I would disclose the allergy once acceptance had been granted/all financial aid sorted out and the student decided to attend the school. In the same vein, I would not disclose the allergy during a job interview either. An interviewer is legally forbidden from asking about a disability, so why disclose a hidden disability that may not have a material impact on your ability to attend school/perform a job.
Exactly.
Mfamom, I concur that you need to just sweetly (okay..saccharine, actually)... ask about eligibility in light of previous APPROVAL of eligibility...
after all... well, you catch the drift, right?
I might further call them on the fact that all of this foot-dragging NONSENSE must. stop. right. this. instant.-- that teacher could have been COMPLETELY blindsided by an entirely predictable life-threatening emergency that administration should have been aware was a risk.
Gee, I'm sure that district administration wouldn't want to be the parties responsible for a catastrophe that they could (and should) have prevented by simply getting their ***t together in a more timely fashion... RIGHT?
;) I thought so.
My dh was livid. Then says you should have just walked to principal office and let loose
Quote from: twinturbo on October 16, 2012, 04:29:32 PM
MfaMom, these new people are going to need the slow grind into submission. Hang tight, it might call for outlasting them they seem big on distraction and manipulation. Wish I could do something to help.
distraction, manipulation and bullying if you ask me
and thank you.....everyone is always so helpful here!!
Quote from: Mfamom on October 16, 2012, 05:58:51 PM
My dh was livid. Then says you should have just walked to principal office and let loose
Had one or both of us done that here (thinking of last year) we'd have been facing the school security and county authorities . . . as it was they did the "threat" stance with the whole frigging office staff staged as though we were going to cause them grave harm when we brought our son in late every morning for a few days . . . all because we withheld attendance for the morning class where we -- AND MOST ESPECIALLY SON -- deemed the situation too dangerous due to the insinuations, coercion, and threats by the teacher.
The school's stalling itself is, in fact, a violation of 504 procedure and process.
~ ~ ~
As to accommodations -- don't forget the "celebration" parties for end of marking periods and other stupid fabricated "reasons".
And any other "culture" days or foodie things disguised as "health fairs" . . .
If you didn't see this link to recent OCR ruling story, might be worth a read:
http://blog.onespotallergy.com/2012/08/filing-an-ocr-complaint-exercise-your-rights-or-lose-them/ (http://blog.onespotallergy.com/2012/08/filing-an-ocr-complaint-exercise-your-rights-or-lose-them/)
Related thread:
Our OCR ruling (http://foodallergysupport.olicentral.com/index.php/topic,5570.0.html)
Quote from: maeve on October 16, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: rainbow on October 16, 2012, 08:32:34 AM
<snip> I'm just wondering, if they really think the kid is "on his/her own" anyway, if the 504 ACTUALLY adds value at the HS age, and realistically, it comes with some risks with respect to college applications. <snip>
I wouldn't disclose the allergy during the application process. It's not relevant to assessing whether the student is academically suited to the university. I would disclose the allergy once acceptance had been granted/all financial aid sorted out and the student decided to attend the school. In the same vein, I would not disclose the allergy during a job interview either. An interviewer is legally forbidden from asking about a disability, so why disclose a hidden disability that may not have a material impact on your ability to attend school/perform a job.
I've heard it's on some college applications. (and private HS / prep school applications too).
Quote from: ajasfolks2 on October 16, 2012, 07:40:17 PM
If you didn't see this link to recent OCR ruling story, might be worth a read:
http://blog.onespotallergy.com/2012/08/filing-an-ocr-complaint-exercise-your-rights-or-lose-them/ (http://blog.onespotallergy.com/2012/08/filing-an-ocr-complaint-exercise-your-rights-or-lose-them/)
Related thread:
Our OCR ruling (http://foodallergysupport.olicentral.com/index.php/topic,5570.0.html)
See the comment in above link which says 504 Plan is portable from District to District. I believe this is true because it is a Plan backed by federal law.
Good luck Mfamom.
It makes me frustrated when schools try to be jerks like this, but I have to admit, it also cheers me up to hear about Mommas like you who I know will do everything that they need to keep their children protected - especially when I relatively regularly deal with parents who are not willing to go the extra mile.
Hugs.
you know what's really pissing me off the most? that the little interaction my son has had so far with regard to his allergies with the nurse and a few of his teachers, they have all made him feel as though the plan is there because he can't handle it himself.
He got really angry with me last night. He said he's tired of dealing with it and me getting all over people when they don't do what I want them to do. He said MOM, I'm a big boy. OMG. I do not vent about it around him. He saw that I was PO'd about the biology thing IDK.
There is a choice of 2 hs for our town. the one he attends is supposed to be a great fit for both academics/athletics. strong all around. the past couple of years, peple have started choosing the other school and I think now I understand why. I'm not impressed. To boot, the strength of the athletics made the decision easy. Now, our enrollment is down and they are in a different division, so the athletic challenge is not there. we're missing 4 starters on football and rolling over evveryone. I am strongly pushing my dh to move. I'm pretty much done, especially with the crap I've dealt with in the past month.
One teacher actually insinuated that my ds is a Dumb Jock. 3rd day of school, he answered a question. the teacher was trying to be funny apparently and he said, "oh, I'm guessing you're on the football team". My ds was highly offended....he said why would you guess that and a little dog and pony show by the teacher began.
Quote from: rainbow on October 16, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
Quote from: maeve on October 16, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: rainbow on October 16, 2012, 08:32:34 AM
<snip> I'm just wondering, if they really think the kid is "on his/her own" anyway, if the 504 ACTUALLY adds value at the HS age, and realistically, it comes with some risks with respect to college applications. <snip>
I wouldn't disclose the allergy during the application process. It's not relevant to assessing whether the student is academically suited to the university. I would disclose the allergy once acceptance had been granted/all financial aid sorted out and the student decided to attend the school. In the same vein, I would not disclose the allergy during a job interview either. An interviewer is legally forbidden from asking about a disability, so why disclose a hidden disability that may not have a material impact on your ability to attend school/perform a job.
I've heard it's on some college applications. (and private HS / prep school applications too).
We'll be dumb and forget to put that on there. Again, it's asking about a legal disability that doesn't need to be covered in that kind of process.
DH and I agreed on one thing when it comes to 504 time: it has to be an education worth fighting for. I have friends that move to change school districts even without FA.
Quote from: rainbow on October 16, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
Quote from: maeve on October 16, 2012, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: rainbow on October 16, 2012, 08:32:34 AM
<snip> I'm just wondering, if they really think the kid is "on his/her own" anyway, if the 504 ACTUALLY adds value at the HS age, and realistically, it comes with some risks with respect to college applications. <snip>
I wouldn't disclose the allergy during the application process. It's not relevant to assessing whether the student is academically suited to the university. I would disclose the allergy once acceptance had been granted/all financial aid sorted out and the student decided to attend the school. In the same vein, I would not disclose the allergy during a job interview either. An interviewer is legally forbidden from asking about a disability, so why disclose a hidden disability that may not have a material impact on your ability to attend school/perform a job.
I've heard it's on some college applications. (and private HS / prep school applications too).
Not those which have been properly vetted by legal, I'm thinking.
UNLESS-- these are schools which do not fall under section 504 (that is, that section of ADA-- which is title II, I believe. ?? ( The educational portion).
The thing is, the OTHER sections don't apply to publically funded schools or to government services... but they DO apply to "places of public accommodation."
What that means is that it is
still illegal to discriminate on the basis of disability alone when the disabled applicant/customer is
otherwise capable. This is (according to DOJ) about policies, practices, and procedures. If application procedures are discriminatory-- and maybe if they just SEEM that way or collect information which COULD be used to discriminate-- then that is illegal.
Now, what is
not illegal is the question which asks "Are there any accommodations which you will need?" But that is quite a different question, and usually it's asked once you've passed an initial hurdle of some sort-- and would therefore NEED said accommodations in order to proceed (as to a job interview onsite, to attend a college, etc.).
The only reasons for denying those accommodations are: a) reasonableness (since this isn't under section 504, remember?), and b) fundamental nature of the program/activity. So you can't tell a pastry class at Cordon Bleu to go wheat-free, even if you need that accommodation... and you can't ask for a building remodel so that you can live in a particular historic dorm.
Legal offices associated with academia are
VERY serious about not exposing themselves to this kind of liability. Truly.
TT and I both know this to be true, and I think that Nameless can vouch for this one, too. :yes: YOU decide how much to share and when. YKW's strategy is completely correct. If you aren't ASKING for an accommodation, you have nothing
to share.
Can we move the college/504 posts to a dedicated thread? That way we'll be able to find them later and stay on track here.
I found some good college 504 content to share.
I've created a thread here: 504 Plans and College / University (http://foodallergysupport.olicentral.com/index.php/topic,6278.0.html)
Yes, sorry...didn't mean to confuse Mfa's issue here.
well that was an interesting meeting. Conference room table of 10 filled with different people sitting with their laptops open
started rocky...
they said his plan is babyish. they don't do sub plans, they don't do this or that.
based on the Nurse's model that this is "real Life" folks.
I thought the focus would be on eligibility which it wasn't. I asked them what accommodations are applicable for hs. I told them my hot point is inclusion
they don't really get it.
They gave me what i asked for, but there are still some points that we were at odds about.
need help in dealing with the "figure it out" attitude
they will not put kabosh on food based rewards or celebrations in classrooms.
I pretty much hate the tone of this school right now and see what others have said about their attitudes and why they sent their kids to the other hs.
not sure what to do
Well, as TT noted-- what's the payoff for putting up with this crap?
Because you just KNOW that the instructional staff isn't going to be more accommodating than administration. It works the other way around sometimes, but administration tends to set the tone for things.
What are your DS' options for self-advocacy in this setting after this meeting?
Does he have the right to remove himself from unsafe environments? If not-- he MUST. That is almost certainly an accommodation that is going to be carried forward in his life after high school.
The inclusion bit, well-- good luck with that one. High school is inherently less likely to view inclusion as an appropriate goal or at least as an overarching one which is important.
While in principle, I agree that this is the time to transition to the "real world," there is still the fact that school isn't "optional" in the way that one's choice of friends, housing, and employment are.
Mfamom--your post reads exactly like mine after my meeting. That is exactly what happened. Exactly. Most folks in response to my post honed in on one aspect (announcing his FA to the class) and not the entire experience I was venting about, but wow--it sounds like you and I are having the same experience with our kiddos yet again. But more than a day apart this time. :)
Yeah, we just kind of gave up on all the food. It is there. Period. And LOTS more of it than middle school (and maybe even elementary). They did not get inclusion. At all. At all.
Sorry--I was trying to scan our 504 to send you. Sounds like you don't need it.
:heart:
On what to do take what I say with a huge grain of academic salt, which is not to say is more smarty-pants but to reveal my bias upfront. I'm married to a tenure-track faculty member who sits on a graduate admissions board and teaches as well and what is coming in to him and other instructors are kids with increasing need for remedial materials before they can even take some core requirements. Their writing is typically atrocious.
It would probably neither unfair nor inaccurate to label us what many people think of as 'tiger parents' even though that label (and book, and author) is extremely misleading. Nonetheless, (and this is all IMHO) HS should be college prep and from this end of the pipeline it's imperative that many kids are not getting the appropriate prep for college in the American highschool. I don't know of a single family that shares our academic outlook that hasn't had to supplement essentially a community college education while using FAPE public school as a social outlet and somewhere to stow the kids during the daytime. When the time comes for us to pick the next school we're going to do as most of the other families we know do--pick up and move to the district with the best school in the nation if we can.
I think you should explore all options based on what the goals are and supplement in whichever and however you can afford in time, money and effort. Minimize the school's sole impact and responsibility for DS's education. Extra-curriculars, community courses, volunteer programs, internships, arguably minors in internships can be nightmarish for a private company but they are out there as well as government programs.
You could divide it responsibility, delegation and autonomy this way. Parent knows life, academic pipeline, workforce realities, parent can evaluate schools. At some point you may want to turn over some of the decision making to DS, and I have not had the pleasure of the teen years yet but I have some boys with serious autonomy issues.
It is ironic that in many ways college minimizes the food bs and is far more active and on board with ADAA, perhaps because there is a paying client model involved and no parent egos, the focus is on acquiring, retaining and graduating students that bolster the school's image and ranking even though they are technically not for profit.
At some point we will be leaving private school to stare down the barrel of that 504 but when we do it's going to be a fight in the best district possible. I also want the kids to have a parallel education in the wider world with a separate social group to properly frame public K-12 school as one avenue, one facet of their whole education.
For instance, how would you feel about a charter, magnet or vocational school? What does he excel at? Does he have an active social life through sports or community activity already? Would you consider taking a year out for some homeschool if you're considering moving anyhow? Could you do a lot of travel during that time? Nothing world shaking there's always plenty to see in locales. I'm not religious but maybe a mission together for a half year, more if you like it. Volunteer long term at a zoo, 4H, junior engineering.
Zag if you can't zig. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it might be worth a moment or two consideration. As long as somewhere in there is objectively measured academic success some extraordinary extra-curricular activity could separate him from the pack in the positive sense on college admissions. Even if he's not college bound it could help transition him to the work force with more focus than his peers.
TT, DD's friends all simply refer to us as "honorary Asian" parents. LOL. Including those of her friends who possess the authentic article, I should add. We're far from unique in our social circle.
The bottom line is that it's not about appearances for most of us, and it's not about resume building per se with our kids, either. We're just absolutely DETERMINED to see our kids not leave home in possession of some kinds of deficits that local public (and private, for that matter) schools seem to think very little about these days.
Test scores and test prep can get stuffed, basically, because it don't mean a thing in the face of a student that can't write cogently, understand the boundaries of academic dishonesty, or manage college algebra, and will need a year (or more) of remediation prior to being truly ready for college material.
I, too, would not really hesitate to explore other options if you're getting a "we're all about holding a major FOOD FEST... because... that's FUN" attitude. In high school?? That's not the kind of preparatory environment, in all honesty, that I want for my child. That sounds like an environment where a lot of time is wasted on seeming appealing, and it's often more for the staff than the students' actual benefits.
Are the academics very good, Mfamom? Is there some other draw for your son/family at this particular school that would lead you to want to stick with it? If the answers are "no, not really" then it might well be time to look at other options.
According to the latest ratings, the school is in the top 20 hs in nj. But the tone if the school, im not loving. Not living the athletic aspect , as we were bumped down a divisionand there is little challenge. We have stuck it out because it was supposed to be an amazing school but im not lovingit
And didn't he want to switch HS's already?
the other hs is the "kinder gentler" hs (word on the street), but they always rank academically below the one he attends. this year they dropped down into the low 40s or high 50s. they won't let you transfer there now due to enrollment already high.
I would consider sending him to private at this point (thought about it end of summer). Its so expensive though $15k ++
would rather MOVE ;)
First, it is unbelievable that most colleges seem to get LTFA, ADAA, 504, etc much better than K-12 school districts. Food rewards and parties in HIGH SCHOOL?! So "elementary" (use that one on the nurse!). :tongue:
Second, sounds like you won't be happy there. Knowing your DS is a happy, assertive, well adjusted, good student and exceptional athlete...I think he'd do well in most schools. Are his friends at this HS? What does he want to do? Any chance he will have a great spring sports season to mitigate some of this?
Sounds like main issue is the administrative staff (principals, nurse, some teachers). I know the school is rated well. I'm sure the education is "fine". I think private (prep) schools may offer a better education but I also think some of the prep schools work the kids VERY hard. But, I think those schools love their top athletes too. I'm sure he'd do well all-around.
The thing is, if you move, it is hard to *know* what you are getting unless you have really good inside information.
Didn't realize the meeting was actually occurring today. Had they rescheduled you? And what is WITH that nurse's attitude?! I'd call her out on that. If a teacher gives a food allergic kid a reward "chocolate" and it happens to have hidden hazelnut, IMO the school staff is responsible. REAL DUMB to give food rewards. They might want to educate themselves on the pervasiveness of LTFA.
yeah, I was supposed to have the meeting Tues (had already been rescheduled before and they double booked and I had to come back on wed)
the nurse and the staff there (various teachers/school psychologist etc) were all very "we're in the real world", this is the "big leagues" blah blah blah.
I said, sure HS means more independence etc, but my son is 14 years old. He's a great advocate, but the plan is not all about him fending for himself. He doesn't have control over lesson plans, party planning etc.
I asked how a teacher could offer a food reward that is not attractive to him or all the students that my ds would not be motivated by that type of reward. I asked how a teacher can plan a classroom "party" and not make it safe for all the students. I lined it up with same principles as bullying....making a person feel left out etc. (I've heard that in spite of our elem. and middle school taking hard stand on bullying, this school turns their heads) so I really wasn't surprised.
then at one point, they were talking about Real World Model and I said you can believe youre teaching these children to live in the real world, but you DO have a responsiblity to give him a safe and inclusive learning environment. I sort of went off on her....(later dh commented that I might read the book how to win friends and influence others LOL)
So, for now, he does have the designation with some fluffy accommodations. I'll just start noting situations as they arise and go from there.
I'm not worried about ds eating something random. I'm more concerned about him avoiding some of the social scene etc. Apparently quite a culture of food. The vending machines are full of peanut crap. (straight up peanuts, reeces, snickers etc).
we'll see what happens.
Document EVERYTHING.
With photos if he can-- and time/date-stamp by sending them to you on your phone/e-mail.
Every single time he feels unsafe in a classroom, he's going to need to do that and then GET UP AND LEAVE.
I predict that this isn't going to go very well, myself. But I also predict that your DS will gain rock solid skills as a result. If you're challenged by administration re: this behavior, you can respond that whether they like it or not, this is the only management option they've left him.
The alternative is knowingly exposing himself to such high risks. Which also exposes them to TREMENDOUS liability legally if anything should go wrong (as it almost certainly will eventually in that scenario).
:tongue: Morons.
Quote from: Mfamom on October 18, 2012, 07:18:42 AM
... but the plan is not all about him fending for himself. He doesn't have control over lesson plans, party planning etc.
I asked how a teacher could offer a food reward that is not attractive to all students...
Yes, this. In the real world, he also is an adult who can choose a safe place to sit at a conference, ensure safe food options for himself on a business trip, etc...not be chained to seat in a classroom where teacher doesn't let kids move around and then orders FOOD as a reward.
I'd copy some stories of things happening to HIGH SCHOOL kids with LTFA. Remember the story about the kid doing sports practice in CT that didn't feel well, needed Epi, went to locker room by himself to get it and called 911 and Mom from locker room? When Mom and Ambulance got there, kid was in anaphylactic shock. That was a few years ago. And the Katelyn Carlson story about the "real world" teacher who ordered Chinese food for the class. And how about the story out today about the "Real world" teacher that insisted on scented candles with nut oils? Oh, and there is one about a Science Lab project done at a "real" high school where child with peanut allergy had reaction (that one probably most relevant and would work well with your "chocolate lab" story or recent "food testing" lab.
Also, I'd look up some information on COLLEGE websites to show them how COLLEGES in the "real world" accept 504 Plans and provide accomodations. (check Michigan State University...saw an article recently). I also remember seeing things on other websites of smaller colleges.
Those are great ideas Rainbow.
Mfamom, last night while driving to school I told DS and DH about your meeting and with every sentence DS was making "uh huh" comments. When I finished, he said, "So does <your DS' name> actually go to my school now, because this sounds exactly like our 504 meeting!" (I hadn't mentioned the striking similarities.).
With the way your DS was treated by football coach, I think you have reason enough to go elsewhere. This provides more reason.
I will say that so far, even though our school unapologetically has a huge culture of food, things have been going okay. If you'll remember very Friday in the multi-grade home room DS has, they have a huge snack (kids sign up for it). And kids are allowed to eat in every class.
We've changed our expectations a bit. Relaxed them some--and part of this is because DS is getting older. And he doesn't want to be stick out. This is the first place where he hasn't been known as the kid with PA and it has frankly helped socially. I'm not saying we've sacrificed safety for popularity. Not at all. But we are now willing to let DS negotiate things more. Our 504 still has that we'll be notified if food used for instructional purposes.
I will still try to send you our 504. I think it's a bit fluffy. But we've got it. Because we did it before school started we had to trust the team a bit when they said something didn't apply there (though I probed to make sure). One thing I didn't take out was the food for lockdown. They were absolutely dumbfounded that we could possibly need to include that. Ugh.
I'm glad you still have the designation. You can work on things from this point.
Sell your house and come here!
McC,
I was thinking about that lockdown issue and was amazed that they didn't see its relevance to shelter in place, which is very likely given the higher incidence of tornadic activity in your new location vs. old location. I'd probably use "shelter in place" when talking about it.
Maeve said exactly what I was thinking.
Weather-related shelter-in-place is much more understandable, I think, to some people. (Also not infrequent, by any means.)
forgot, this part.....
I asked them if they might be able to give me aheads up on what the hs culture is and situations that accommodations might be necessary...they gave me a few things followd by this is High School and your approach is very elementary and middle schoolish.... REAL LIFE is now and big boy lecture.
I actually snorted a few minutes later when they asked if he had a safe treat box for class parties in MS.
I actually laughed at them a bit and said he didn't have a safe treat box in elem. or mS. in elementary the "parties" and "treats" were packaged safe treats and in MS they never had a food reward or class party. LOL I said it sounds like the HS culture has reverted back to elem. school
:)
oh and this MAY be the icing on the cake.....remember the basketball drama from last year? coach son now the head coach for our high school. he is also a helper in football. so, my ds has been completely alienated from the team because no one can understand why he can't club his hand and play. they cannot understand why it is taking all this time to heal.
so he won't be cleared to have activity in time for basketball tryouts. My ds has been on the elite team for the past 3 years, was on the ms team as a 7th grader (only 3 make it) as well as 8th grade. The coach told him too bad, no exceptions etc.
I'm sure if one of the "it" boys were in the situation, they would be slid right on the roster.
It just doesn't feel right and I may have to have WWIII with my dh who says everything will be okay, but I know in my heart it won't.
Quote from: yelloww on October 18, 2012, 03:53:29 PM
Sell your house and come here!
I'm just going to keep posting this! :yes:
Our football team is 5-2 right now.
Oh I'm so sorry. This really stinks. I can hear your pain and worry on your last post. :heart:
Quote from: twinturbo on October 17, 2012, 08:18:27 AM
DH and I agreed on one thing when it comes to 504 time: it has to be an education worth fighting for.
Needing the Hallelujah Chorus for this one. AMEN!
(Saying this was where we finally realized we were . . . hence the homeschooling now . . . )
Have been thinking about this thread . . .
now I'm beginning to understand why the FAB SCHOOL NURSE (the one we had for only one year in MS) was SO ALL OVER getting the 504 set up and detailed for our son . . .
her words to the effect of "I really want these (504s) fully set up before they get to high school" . . .
Wish I could clone her.
~ ~ ~
ETA -- Also, I think they thought they were going to remove eligibility and just wash their hands of you and your son's "problem" (vs truly qualifying disability under Sect 504 & ADA) . . . and when they realized they'd have to leave the eligibility, they just worked to gut the 504 plan . . . under the guise of "Real World".
Which is exactly what the school district did to us (both MS and elementary) before we disenrolled.
~ ~ ~
Wishing we had Gail's input here about now . . . (channeling "why NOT having a 504 does everyone a disservice" . . . )
Hearing "Duty of Care" in my head as I continue to mull this thread . . .
There's no way I could armchair jockey a stonewalled administration digging its heels in even further, but, short of stifling the urge to help their faces meet the table I'd also have the urge to acknowledge the bs with a Neil Degrasse Tyson meme shrug and say
Alrighty, you got me. You're denying accomodations. But since this is a public school and we're within the 504 process without using pet buzzwords "big boy" and "real world" I am requesting on October 18, 2012 10:34 am to have a clear and precise explanation within the framework of FAPE, Section 504, Title II ADAA, and your job descriptions why these accomodations are being denied. I contend that the requested accomodations do not constitute undue burdens and do not in any way change the fundamental nature of any program.
I expect this answer in writing and in full compliance with above mentioned regulations adhering to 504 procedural safeguards.
Having said that, if they did indeed have a solid reply one would have to remain open minded about it to at least hear them out.
Not just for moral support, but the opening quote from the original thread (old place, but I copied into our thread too) may resonate as well:
Quotes to live by (http://foodallergysupport.olicentral.com/index.php/topic,3281.0.html)
Quote from: twinturbo on October 19, 2012, 07:18:33 AM
There's no way I could armchair jockey a stonewalled administration digging its heels in even further, but, short of stifling the urge to help their faces meet the table I'd also have the urge to acknowledge the bs with a Neil Degrasse Tyson meme shrug and say
Alrighty, you got me. You're denying accomodations. But since this is a public school and we're within the 504 process without using pet buzzwords "big boy" and "real world" I am requesting on October 18, 2012 10:34 am to have a clear and precise explanation within the framework of FAPE, Section 504, Title II ADAA, and your job descriptions why these accomodations are being denied. I contend that the requested accomodations do not constitute undue burdens and do not in any way change the fundamental nature of any program.
I expect this answer in writing and in full compliance with above mentioned regulations adhering to 504 procedural safeguards.
Having said that, if they did indeed have a solid reply one would have to remain open minded about it to at least hear them out.
Thing of beauty, this!
Putting this link here, not just as it relates to current news of ana reax in HS, but ALSO as it states "student came into clinic" . . . when the EPI should have been co-located with the student AND the student should had had nurse/aid COME TO HIM.
http://pwcs.edu/modules/news/announcements/announcement.phtml?aid=3120409&share=pwcsnews (http://pwcs.edu/modules/news/announcements/announcement.phtml?aid=3120409&share=pwcsnews)
also, from link within that briefing:
http://pwcs.schoolfusion.us/modules/news/announcements/announcement.phtml?aid=3088687 (http://pwcs.schoolfusion.us/modules/news/announcements/announcement.phtml?aid=3088687)
I'd just like to know if OCR realizes how the families of children with LTFA are getting bullied out of 504's by schools.
Like here, with the terms "big boy" and "babyish" and "real world".
Well, okay.... I'm merely playing devil's advocate here, but I can see the value in leaving more and more of the day-to-day avoidance and decision-making in our kids' hands at this stage.
I base what I ask for from the school on what we're (and our physician is) comfortable with in terms of day to day management. That is, we do allow (encourage?) our DD13 to go to the movies, visit local coffeeshops, etc. without us in tow, and WITHOUT controlling the food FOR her...
Like Mac's son, this has been miraculous for her socially. I can't possibly overstate it, truly. On the other hand, it's more than occasionally terrifying for us as parents. But so far, she's managed very very well. She is pretty much never without one or more friends that knows about her allergies-- and several of those friends have asthma.
As long as autonomy is being HANDED OVER to the allergic adolescent, then I have less problem making the 504 plan more "real-world-like."
Where I have a problem with this in a school setting is, as noted above, when the student is FORCED to remain in a situation which is: a) uncomfortable, and/or b) overtly dangerous. We hand over control and let DD venture places that we'd NEVER have taken her four years ago-- but the reason is that SHE is in control of herself and she has carte blanche for managing. She can (and has) gotten up and left, or opted out completely, when a situation seems unsafe to her.
I also have a BIG problem with food rewards-- because for our kids, that directly inverts the external motivator and makes it punishment for doing a task/activity. PUNISHMENT. That's actively damaging to kids that see it that way. If it isn't, then there's no point in offering it as a 'reward' to any kids, since it's not really a "reward." KWIM? If it is a 'reward' for those who get it, then it's PUNISHMENT for kids who find it a hazard rather than a pleasant thing. That is just such simple operant conditioning that it boggles my mind that ANY educator could possibly fail to note it.
Secondly, extrinsic motivators have been shown, in adolescents and adults, to be PARADOXICAL. That is, tasks associated with rewards become LESS intrinsically rewarding, LESS appealing, and less competently accomplished. There's research on this effect, by the way. I'd use it. For kids with developmental delays, fine. For adolescents without them-- not so fine.
CM, your points are good but it doesn't diminish the fact that the school staff was bullying the parent with those terms, with the goal of removing 504 or reducing accomodations.
Food rewards are way behind the times.
And there should always be emergency protocol for anaphylaxis, and I'm not convinced most High schools even have this...because when asked, bet they don't really have proper procedures down (ie, many teachers would send a kid having a reaction to the nurse alone).
A child in my kid's 5th grade class was BEGGING to go to the nurse becuase she felt sick the other day. Yes, it was during a test and the teacher (who is known to be difficult) repeatedly refused, to the point it was distracting all students in the classroom during the test (the girl was then crying). However, who was teacher (that she sees twice a week for 1 hour) to say that she didn't have a legitimate need (said a stomach ache)? This is how teachers will treat our kids - like "regular ones" if they don't know of the condition as per the 504.
That could be a win-win alternative taking a page from the school's own handbook - autonomy, on the record autonomy that the school supports with positive consistency through action not lipservice. In a way that is how we *have* to do it through private school without Title II protections. Long story I don't want to clutter this thread with but that's where DH & I decided to go. Not ALL DS1's responsibility of course but I guess when it comes to trusting an individual I simply don't trust any school generally speaking.
From my perspective coddle or fend for self is a false dichotomy, a school might want a student to take personal responsibilty for management as much as possible but if they refuse to provide an environment that truly fosters self-management without glaring ADAA violations not to mention risk to life then what they are saying really is they don't want to be inconvenienced with prevention measures whether performed on the staff side or largely by the affected student.
Exactly.
I won't EVER hand over the authority to make decisions about FA or anaphylaxis to anyone that doesn't understand it. I seldom am willing with anyone other than my DD herself. HER, I trust. School officials? Not on your, er-- or rather "her" life.
EVERY situation that she is in, she must have that authority. Her. NO adult can have veto power over her there. If she abuses that, then that is a separate behavioral issue. But this is about the bedrock of a lifetime management strategy. NOT negotiable.
And yeah, that was my point about food rewards-- not only are they infantile... they are actually counterproductive if they are serving as an "extrinsic" motivator, plus they are clearly punitive to FA children (and like to diabetic ones as well), since they provoke isolation, shame, and fear as a result of meeting said goal or objective.
From an operant conditioning standpoint, food rewards are ABSOLUTELY verboten in this situation, and it has nothing to do with 'the real world' so much as it has to do with fostering learning without actively damaging any student's intrinsic motivation to learn.
So, along that vein either requires a 504 designation in order to have the accomodations in place either enabled, supported, comprehensive autonomy supervised by parent and other responsible adults, or the preexisting plan. But while it's a great mental exercise (for me at any rate) I think what DH calls he cupcake mafia wants is no accomdations because it inconviences them. And as far as examining the "real world" argument goes if an administration is citing real world without real autonomy that actually requires as many accomodations as "babyish" plans then it wouldn't support a real world assertion towards fostering self-management. Self-management requiring liberty to move at will, question at will, require answers upon demand when necessary, work with staff on a more equal basis, have unfettered access to two-way communication (cell phone), credibility when citin medical difficulties if they interfere with assignment completion, request an alteration when needed to facilitate participation, what did I miss?
I know universities can handle this. Can a K-12 handle this?
QuoteSelf-management requiring liberty to move at will, question at will, require answers upon demand when necessary, work with staff on a more equal basis, have unfettered access to two-way communication (cell phone), credibility when citin medical difficulties if they interfere with assignment completion, request an alteration when needed to facilitate participation, what did I miss?
Not a thing, as far as I can tell.
That's the ticket, all right. And it's precisely how I fight fire with fire on this score.
"Real world?"
GREAT. My daughter has veto authority as it pertains to her safety, and she also gets immunity from YOU for exercising it. :yes: SO glad that we can agree... :thumbsup:
Usually makes administrators go--> :footinmouth: :dunce: >:(, but they know that they've lost at that point, because anything to the contrary is unsupportably irrational. Either the duty of care belongs with the school... or... it doesn't. It belongs to SOMEONE, at any rate.
Excellent points about Free Will in the Real World....vs. "babyish" plans in the K-12 world where kids are subjected to rules of personnel that don't necessarily understand LTFA or have the motivation to have safe procedures in place, and/or allow students the autonomy to handle themselves in a safer manner when a situation arises.
And the idea of "food rewards" in high school is not only "babyish", it also is proven to have a negative impact on intrinsic motivation (as you said) and even our "elementary" school principal got that one.
I think TT has a calling as a FA advocate. I'd hire her! :thumbsup:
Right. "Duty of Care".
Which should include things like not passing out unsafe food in classrooms with students with anaphylactic allergies to such food, under the guise of a "reward".
If I was that awesome at advocacy I'd have our school under control--I don't.