Food Allergy Support

Welcome => Welcome and Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: Jess4879 on December 01, 2013, 10:38:11 AM

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Title: Newbie
Post by: Jess4879 on December 01, 2013, 10:38:11 AM
Hello all!

I am new here, but not so new to fa's.  My oldest was diagnosed with an egg allergy when she was two and a nut allergy when she was three.  She has outgrown the egg allergy (*cheers*) but her nut allergy levels are "in the hundreds" according to her allergist.  She is now 10.

I am glad to find this group!  We are the only one in our group of family/friends that has a child with fa's and it has been a challenge to say the least. We have a few people that support us fully and realize the dangers of a pn/tn allergy...and we have a lot that just don't get it. 

The big question that has sent me searching lately is:  how/when do you introduce you kids to foods that another member is allergic to?  Our oldest has a severe pn/tn allergy.  Our house is completely nut free, because of this, my other kids have never been introduced to nuts.  We don't restrict their diets when they are out, so they have come in to contact with traces of, etc...but we don't allow them to eat nut products themselves because of the risk of exposure to our oldest.  Our allergist recently made me feel awful for not introducing nuts but he has no advice on how to do it.  When I asked him, he just said "you just have to do it!" NOT helpful.  He wants us to give the other two kids nut products every week.  We homeschool so they are home all the time.  I don't know how to go about doing this.  Do I take the other kids outside, feed them PB, scrub hands, teeth, faces and come back inside?  Is it really worth the risk??  There seems to be so many mixed reviews on what causes allergies.  I definitey don't want to be the cause of triggering a nut allergy in my younger kids, but I don't want to be the cause of triggering a deadly reaction in my oldest.  HELP!
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 01, 2013, 06:48:55 PM
Is there a clinical reason to do this, or does he just think it's not OK emotionally for them? We are in the extreme, I think, and just shut down on having anything in the house that any one person cannot have - it's just too much trouble. My kids are homeschooled, too, and we never eat out. For us, that means no gluten (hubby), tree nuts (me), milk (me), shellfish (me) in the house, ever. Some things like rice which I react to with a rash we just don't keep in the house, but the kids have elsewhere if they want it. I have recently been thinking about this, though, and whether it had the danger of sensitizing the kids to those things if they don't take in small amounts. They have no food allergies now but maybe I am putting them in danger? They don't like having dairy and don't like nuts so it's not a big deal to them, but maybe it's the wrong path?
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: SilverLining on December 01, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
My son couldn't eat peanuts/nuts at home because I worried about having a severe reaction cleaning him or his mess up.  He couldn't have it at school because they were banned there.

His first taste of peanut butter was given to him by his older brother (first aid and epi-pen trained).  And he vomited.  He tried it again at his friend's house (friend's mother is a nurse).  He didn't like it.

Eventually he was tested for a peanut allergy (negative), and now, as a teen he likes some peanut candy, but still doesn't really like pb.

He's 15 and probably has something with peanut or nut several times a year.  That's it.  I don't see a reason a kid needs to eat it weekly.  The paediatrician my son saw didn't feel it was necessary either.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: LinksEtc on December 01, 2013, 07:35:20 PM
Welcome Jess.  I hope you find this to be a supportive board.

I don't have a lot of specific advice, but I found a few articles/posts that might be helpful.

-------------------------------------------

"Managing Food Allergies at Home"
http://www.foodallergy.org/managing-food-allergies/at-home
Quote
Should You Ban Problem Foods?
Some families decide to allow problem foods in their home, but take precautions to keep the family member who has food allergies safe. Others find it easier to implement a total ban. 


-------------------------------------------

You sound like you are so hard on yourself  :heart: - you might enjoy this blog post.
"Mommy Guilt, Or How I Caused My Child's Allergies"
http://foodallergybitch.blogspot.com/2012/07/mommy-guilt-or-how-i-caused-my-childs.html

-------------------------------------------

As far as when to introduce allergenic foods, the advice has changed a lot over the years ... but keep in mind that the docs don't have all the answers on this topic yet.

"Food Allergy Advice for Kids: Don't Delay Peanuts, Eggs"
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324662404578334423524696016
Quote
Highly allergenic foods such as peanut butter, fish and eggs can be introduced to babies between 4 and 6 months and may even play a role in preventing food allergies from developing.

Quote
The recommendations are a U-turn from 2000
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: Jess4879 on December 02, 2013, 09:18:55 AM
Is there a clinical reason to do this, or does he just think it's not OK emotionally for them?  They have no food allergies now but maybe I am putting them in danger? They don't like having dairy and don't like nuts so it's not a big deal to them, but maybe it's the wrong path?

The allergist is telling us that we can trigger an allergy by delaying introduction, but he doesn't know of any safe way to introduce them either.  :/  This is also the exact opposite of what he told us 7 years ago, when the consensus was to wait to avoid allergy.  This is where I struggle, because the docs just don't know what is really causing allergies or if they can be prevented.

I have no idea what is the right path to follow.  :(
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: SilverLining on December 02, 2013, 10:30:38 AM
I came across this news article and thought about this discussion.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/babies-can-try-allergy-provoking-foods-as-early-as-6-months-1.2445748?cmp=fbtl

Quote
The American Academy of Pediatrics reversed its recommendations in 2008, but Chan said not enough Canadian family doctors and parents have heard about the change.

Once parents introduce a new food to babies, doctors recommend giving it several times per week with a soft mashed consistency to avoid the risk of choking to maintain a child's tolerance.


So, your doctor is following the current recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Quote
When Stephanie Schick's four-year-old daughter eats yogurt, she gets fully washed down to help protect her six-year-old sister, who has a dairy allergy.


I don't know how comfortable I would be doing that if it was my child with the food allergy.  Since it's me...it just was not possible. 
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: twinturbo on December 02, 2013, 10:51:20 AM
There's a few ways you could handle this. I'm assuming you have to protect the long term relationship with the allergist?

A home isn't a lab and kids aren't cooperative test subjects. You could point out a couple of items posted by Dr. Wood, a Johns Hopkins allergist who himself has a peanut allergy. On his site is a note about how hard it is in reality for younger kids to manage allergens because they will spread allergens. He himself had his worst reaction from cross-contamination from a colleague's wife's cookies, who assured them they were peanut free. Turned out to be a spatula used to lift pb cookies off a tray were used for the non-pb cookies.

If it were me I'd tell him I can do a lot but I can't control the world, my house is not a lab, my kids are not test subjects and I don't get to punch out on food allergies at 5:00 pm.

Having said that we do live with most of our allergens in the house. I say 'most' because we have so many, particularly my youngest child. There are two we are most careful about: peanut and milk. I don't have either of those in the house because my children's eliciting doses to anaphylaxis are so minute. I also have to go according to a management style that is possible for my kids given their age and developmental stage.

Roasted peanut proteins tend to be the most durable. It takes more wiping, chewing, washing than baked egg or baked milk. It's also a much more narrow category of food item than dairy, egg, wheat, soy (because it's used in so many things). That's something to consider. Now if your child has a wide threshold for peanut then that's different, and no matter how high the numbers they tell you absolutely nothing of threshold. If all you have are high numbers but no history of reaction, especially anaphylactic you may have more room for contamination.

The allergist is going on conventional wisdom based on correlation, I don't believe there's been any publications that provide a direct causation from delayed introduction. In fact, I believe that never became truly set amongst the entire medical community if for no other reason that no one knows how sensitization in allergic disease happens exactly and why some proteins and not others. He's mistaken outright if his idea is that specific allergens run in families rather than allergic disease itself. It would behoove him to keep an open mind about that and not assume because you're not introducing lobster at age 2 then your child will become allergic to lobster. If it were that simple this whole thing would be solved already.



Dr. Sicherer was our previous allergist. I asked him about the idea of highly allergenic foods, introduction and 'keeping them in the diet'. His response (which I am paraphrasing) is he believed that was a slight misinterpretation of OIT data where tolerance was cultivated. He said although sensitization can occur at any time as a reasonable butt-covering possibility, that if you're not allergic to something to begin with there's no value in 'keeping it in the diet'. One simply isn't allergic to it. For reference I was asking about crustaceans and the idea that our son will eat them but not consistently. He did not see that as a concern. This was probably mid 2011.

One good compromise could be if older child is peanut allergic only to start using tolerated tree nuts that all the kids can eat. That should ease the allergist's emotional state a bit, open up new foods for all. The kids w/o allergies could avoid overt peanut until a little older when all the kids can take more responsibility. It's not healthy to create a situation where kids get disciplined due to allergen management.

I would for sure want to find out about peanut for the other kids by school age.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 02, 2013, 11:32:12 AM
Is there a clinical reason to do this, or does he just think it's not OK emotionally for them?  They have no food allergies now but maybe I am putting them in danger? They don't like having dairy and don't like nuts so it's not a big deal to them, but maybe it's the wrong path?

The allergist is telling us that we can trigger an allergy by delaying introduction, but he doesn't know of any safe way to introduce them either.  :/  This is also the exact opposite of what he told us 7 years ago, when the consensus was to wait to avoid allergy.  This is where I struggle, because the docs just don't know what is really causing allergies or if they can be prevented.

I have no idea what is the right path to follow.  :(

I agree with the people who have hinted that this is your path and not your allergist's path and, ultimately, it's your decision. The reality is kid all over the world fail to be exposed to any number of foods due to taste preferences or commonality in cuisine, etc. Before Nutella became popular in the US, how many US kids were eating hazelnuts on a regular basis? Staying safe with food allergies requires a complex set of controls that are social and behavioral in nature and is not easily subjected to alteration, in my experience. There is no way for a clinician to tell you whether changing things up could be done safely or not since it's so complex and based in your family's habits and behaviors.

On the other hand, I worry, too. My thing is that all of my food allergies have developed thus: discomfort eating common food -> giving up food entirely with strict avoidance to avoid discomfort -> ingestion of tiny amount causing full blown anaphylaxis after the period of strict avoidance. Those experiences make me wonder if I'd continued to ingest small amounts, maybe I could have avoided the anaphylaxis? That is the only thing that has really made me wonder about the kids. But none of them are even atopic - no eczema, no environmental allergies except a minor one in one kid (cats). Given that they could develop food allergies to anything at any time and allergy management is such a "soft science" (in the words of my new allergist), I can't bring myself to worry too much.

If he's really insistent, maybe tell him he can set up oral food challenges for nuts in the office for your nonallergic kids. Twice a week :).
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: YouKnowWho on December 02, 2013, 02:14:01 PM
Do you have a friend or neighbor that would be willing to give them Reese's Pieces (thinking more contained and less greasy than true PB) or a nut mix.  Maybe possibly go over there the first few times to make sure they are okay and keep your DD safe by staying home.

We opted not to keep an allergen free home but have had to place restrictions on how we do things.  My older son is allergic to wheat, rye, barley and egg - we have those items in the house but I cannot mix them up dry without DS1 reacting.  So I can buy things like refrigerated biscuits in a can, but I cannot mix up a batch of biscuits from dry goods if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: Jess4879 on December 02, 2013, 02:27:56 PM
There's a few ways you could handle this. I'm assuming you have to protect the long term relationship with the allergist?

A home isn't a lab and kids aren't cooperative test subjects. You could point out a couple of items posted by Dr. Wood, a Johns Hopkins allergist who himself has a peanut allergy. On his site is a note about how hard it is in reality for younger kids to manage allergens because they will spread allergens. He himself had his worst reaction from cross-contamination from a colleague's wife's cookies, who assured them they were peanut free. Turned out to be a spatula used to lift pb cookies off a tray were used for the non-pb cookies.

If it were me I'd tell him I can do a lot but I can't control the world, my house is not a lab, my kids are not test subjects and I don't get to punch out on food allergies at 5:00 pm.

Having said that we do live with most of our allergens in the house. I say 'most' because we have so many, particularly my youngest child. There are two we are most careful about: peanut and milk. I don't have either of those in the house because my children's eliciting doses to anaphylaxis are so minute. I also have to go according to a management style that is possible for my kids given their age and developmental stage.

Roasted peanut proteins tend to be the most durable. It takes more wiping, chewing, washing than baked egg or baked milk. It's also a much more narrow category of food item than dairy, egg, wheat, soy (because it's used in so many things). That's something to consider. Now if your child has a wide threshold for peanut then that's different, and no matter how high the numbers they tell you absolutely nothing of threshold. If all you have are high numbers but no history of reaction, especially anaphylactic you may have more room for contamination.

The allergist is going on conventional wisdom based on correlation, I don't believe there's been any publications that provide a direct causation from delayed introduction. In fact, I believe that never became truly set amongst the entire medical community if for no other reason that no one knows how sensitization in allergic disease happens exactly and why some proteins and not others. He's mistaken outright if his idea is that specific allergens run in families rather than allergic disease itself. It would behoove him to keep an open mind about that and not assume because you're not introducing lobster at age 2 then your child will become allergic to lobster. If it were that simple this whole thing would be solved already.



Dr. Sicherer was our previous allergist. I asked him about the idea of highly allergenic foods, introduction and 'keeping them in the diet'. His response (which I am paraphrasing) is he believed that was a slight misinterpretation of OIT data where tolerance was cultivated. He said although sensitization can occur at any time as a reasonable butt-covering possibility, that if you're not allergic to something to begin with there's no value in 'keeping it in the diet'. One simply isn't allergic to it. For reference I was asking about crustaceans and the idea that our son will eat them but not consistently. He did not see that as a concern. This was probably mid 2011.

One good compromise could be if older child is peanut allergic only to start using tolerated tree nuts that all the kids can eat. That should ease the allergist's emotional state a bit, open up new foods for all. The kids w/o allergies could avoid overt peanut until a little older when all the kids can take more responsibility. It's not healthy to create a situation where kids get disciplined due to allergen management.

I would for sure want to find out about peanut for the other kids by school age.

Thank you for responding.  She has reacted to peanuts once, on one ingestion. She had swelling of the lips and vomitting from one bite of a peanut butter cookie. She hasn't had exposure to nuts (that we are aware of) since then.  We have not done a food challenge at this point to see if she is able to ingest other types of nuts and the allergist said he isn't concerned about those and won't worry about a challenge until a later (unspecified date).  At this point we treat her as though she were allergic to all nuts.  It simplifies things for us and for her at this point.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: Jess4879 on December 02, 2013, 02:29:55 PM


If he's really insistent, maybe tell him he can set up oral food challenges for nuts in the office for your nonallergic kids. Twice a week :).

 :)
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: twinturbo on December 02, 2013, 02:35:16 PM
Then the allergist has some inconsistencies he should work out on his introduction schedule first before hanging it on you.

Why?

Tree nuts are not related peanuts, although there is some correlation to sensitivity along with sesame and lupin. Tree nuts aren't even all related to each other. Therefore you have many cases where a peanut (legume) allergic individual can tolerate one, two or all tree nuts. Almonds are more closely drupaceous seeds in the rose family. Cashews and pistachios are related to mangoes. One of the challenges most peanut allergic individuals face is getting tree nuts free of peanut contamination in order to in-office challenge.

Why am I telling you this? If an allergist pushed on kids must eat peanut or it's mom's fault for not introducing it sooner then it would be logical for doctor to help patient determine if all, some or no tree nuts must be avoided. So simpler for him doesn't translate to goals if the goal is to not delay introduction of allergenic food. Why push you solely on peanut? That makes no sense.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 02, 2013, 02:49:01 PM

Thank you for responding.  She has reacted to peanuts once, on one ingestion. She had swelling of the lips and vomitting from one bite of a peanut butter cookie. She hasn't had exposure to nuts (that we are aware of) since then.  We have not done a food challenge at this point to see if she is able to ingest other types of nuts and the allergist said he isn't concerned about those and won't worry about a challenge until a later (unspecified date).  At this point we treat her as though she were allergic to all nuts.  It simplifies things for us and for her at this point.

I think that is kind of bizarre. Wouldn't it be just as important for her to "dose" tree nuts to avoid developing that common allergen, too? That does not make any sense to me that your allergist would push it for the siblings and not for a kid who is already predisposed to food allergy. I am assuming this is the inconsistency twinturbo is referring to.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: Jess4879 on December 02, 2013, 05:23:39 PM

 If an allergist pushed on kids must eat peanut or it's mom's fault for not introducing it sooner then it would be logical for doctor to help patient determine if all, some or no tree nuts must be avoided. So simpler for him doesn't translate to goals if the goal is to not delay introduction of allergenic food. Why push you solely on peanut? That makes no sense.

This was my thinking too.  It just didn't make sense. 
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: booandbrimom on December 03, 2013, 05:46:29 PM
We have two kids. My son has peanut allergy; my daughter has no known allergies.

We did keep the house peanut-free (and nut free at the time) when they were both small, but around age 6, my daughter wanted to start having access to foods her brother couldn't eat. She was trying things at friend's houses, so we had to make up a protocol:

- Peanut butter was always on a paper plate, with disposable utensils. (No worries about shared dishes/pans, or bad dishwashing.)
- It was always at the table. No carrying it around, no eating in other rooms.
- It was always stored on a special pantry shelf that was labeled unsafe for him.
- When she was young, hands had to be washed right after.

We didn't have too many problems with this, although we really had to work on reinforcing it with her and she was really bad about keeping candy in her room for a while. But a lot of it is predicated on whether you have a child with a touch allergy. Our son just wasn't that sensitive.

Later, we challenged each tree nut individually and we do keep the nuts in his diet that he's able to eat. I am a believer in having kids consume the foods they can consume. My gut feeling is that there are "incidences" that can trigger new food allergies and having foods in the diet during one of these times is protective. But really - it's just a crap shoot at this point. Mostly I just hate to see parents avoid anything their child doesn't absolutely *need* to avoid, simply because it's so restrictive.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 03, 2013, 08:31:24 PM
Boo and TwinTurbo have given you excellent advice.

I'd seriously press your allergist on the subject of food challenges to some tree nuts.  Find out (for certain) what you can-- and cannot-- have in your home.  The advice you've been given sounds VERY much like "let them eat cake" coming from your allergist; some of them truly can't quite grasp what it is to live with food allergy, and others can't quite grasp what it means to live with a very low threshold dose (we've had both experiences with allergists, even very good ones).

So ultimately, day-to-day management and avoidance?  Your allergist isn't the expert.  YOU are.

So gather information, but then make your own decisions about risk/benefit, IMO.   


Some allergens we keep in the house, and some we don't.

Not in the house:  crustaceans, cashew, pistachio, peanut-- the reasoning is that the eliciting doses involved are either too unpredictable or too scary-low and/or the reaction history is very, very scary-severe.  A major-- or in a couple of cases, minor-- error with one of those could cause death no matter what transpired afterwards.  So.

Not in the house because they simply don't NEED to be, and they are likely anaphylaxis triggers-- mango and walnut.

Not in the house in some FORMS:  soy, almond, egg.

In the house, just avoidance for those who are allergic-- several things, mostly fruits and vegetables; milk.



I mention this to let you know that most of us have a highly idiosyncratic household protocol surrounding this stuff.   Mostly, it's stuff that we've figured out taking into account our own life experience, the needs and desires of OTHER members of the family, cultural preferences, etc. etc. 

I grew up in a house that did NOT restrict my allergens-- ever.  Now, did that force tolerance?  Well, maybe.   But I developed a shellfish allergy as an adult, and I'd been eating shrimp and other crustaceans regularly my entire life.   

Allergic is allergic, and if you aren't destined to be, then so be it, IMO. 

While topical reactions to things like poison ivy are not in the same category as IgE-mediated food allergy, it's an instructive example--  additional exposure just racks up ticks on your life-o-meter there.  About 80% of people are born with a magic number.  Reach that and you're allergic.  For some unlucky souls, it's 0 or 1.  For some others, it's 987, or 46.  No real way to know until you learn the hard way.

I do wonder about that given the number of ADULTS with nut or shellfish allergy that seemed to develop after a period of exposure.  If exposure is protective then that shouldn't happen-- but it clearly DOES.









Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 03, 2013, 09:05:46 PM
Boo and TwinTurbo have given you excellent advice.

I'd seriously press your allergist on the subject of food challenges to some tree nuts.  Find out (for certain) what you can-- and cannot-- have in your home.  The advice you've been given sounds VERY much like "let them eat cake" coming from your allergist; some of them truly can't quite grasp what it is to live with food allergy, and others can't quite grasp what it means to live with a very low threshold dose (we've had both experiences with allergists, even very good ones).

So ultimately, day-to-day management and avoidance?  Your allergist isn't the expert.  YOU are.

So gather information, but then make your own decisions about risk/benefit, IMO.   


Some allergens we keep in the house, and some we don't.

Not in the house:  crustaceans, cashew, pistachio, peanut-- the reasoning is that the eliciting doses involved are either too unpredictable or too scary-low and/or the reaction history is very, very scary-severe.  A major-- or in a couple of cases, minor-- error with one of those could cause death no matter what transpired afterwards.  So.

Not in the house because they simply don't NEED to be, and they are likely anaphylaxis triggers-- mango and walnut.

Not in the house in some FORMS:  soy, almond, egg.

In the house, just avoidance for those who are allergic-- several things, mostly fruits and vegetables; milk.



I mention this to let you know that most of us have a highly idiosyncratic household protocol surrounding this stuff.   Mostly, it's stuff that we've figured out taking into account our own life experience, the needs and desires of OTHER members of the family, cultural preferences, etc. etc. 

I grew up in a house that did NOT restrict my allergens-- ever.  Now, did that force tolerance?  Well, maybe.   But I developed a shellfish allergy as an adult, and I'd been eating shrimp and other crustaceans regularly my entire life.   

Allergic is allergic, and if you aren't destined to be, then so be it, IMO. 

While topical reactions to things like poison ivy are not in the same category as IgE-mediated food allergy, it's an instructive example--  additional exposure just racks up ticks on your life-o-meter there.  About 80% of people are born with a magic number.  Reach that and you're allergic.  For some unlucky souls, it's 0 or 1.  For some others, it's 987, or 46.  No real way to know until you learn the hard way.

I do wonder about that given the number of ADULTS with nut or shellfish allergy that seemed to develop after a period of exposure.  If exposure is protective then that shouldn't happen-- but it clearly DOES.

I always have felt like shellfish was in its own category, though, since it's almost always adults who develop it and it's rare for people to eat it very intensively (like, every day) except in specific regions near the sea. It's just so common in adults and is almost always adult-onset. If it is related to dust mite exposure as is thought, though, it could just be that people reach their threshold that way. Nuts seem to have a different pathway since first exposure in children can and often does elicit a severe reaction and maybe low-level dosing in a nonallergic kid does make sense? Or would make sense if they could figure out the right dose? I don't think anyone has enough information, though. This is the kind of thing I would really love allergy researchers to pay attention to better. I feel like in my own life I can tell you exactly how my allergies developed in the leadup to anaphylaxis, how long it took, what symptoms I had. But I feel like no clinician can describe that in terms of the physiology of sensitization. The allergist I just saw felt I might have sensitized myself to almonds, but I don't read much in the literature on sensitization. I don't read much about how to "read the signs" of a proto-allergy, per se, even though with every allergy I developed I had some pretty glaring signs in the time leading up to initial anaphylaxis (gastro mostly). With nut allergies, I would personally not trust an "innoculation" model, and also not with shellfish. Although I might with an allergy like milk that seem much more mutable in nature.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: twinturbo on December 03, 2013, 10:32:25 PM
As far as I know about mite-crustacean cross reactivity I don't think that exists outside of testing. A component test may reveal what protein fractions are shared but the Asia Pacific region is much harder hit with dust mites, they deal with more species due to temperate/tropical climates. It has not correlated positively to crustacean sensitization. Wheat and milk are significant in East Asia, Singapore is also heavy on milk allergy to a special milk carbohydrate along with peanut. The lengthened pollen seasons do seem to correlate to an increased sensitization to fruits and vegetables beyond OAS.

Mainly though, the allergic march there is epidemically sensitized to heinous dust mites with epidemic levels of asthma and eczema. It's possible that the population in USA in isolation correlates with dust mite-crustacean but this does not present as such globally, even in regions with more species and incidences of dust mite population and sensitization. Open access papers and abstracts available in threads I posted to.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: rebekahc on December 04, 2013, 09:52:36 AM
I think it's a fallacy to assume most shellfish allergy is adult-onset and therefore different from peanut (though there may be research suggesting such that I'm not aware of).  Personally, I know equal numbers of people with adult-onset peanut allergy as I do adult-onset shellfish allergy.  My kids and I are all childhood-onset shellfish allergy.

However, if it's true that shellfish allergy is statistically likely to be adult-onset, then that could suggest the possibility of sporadic exposure leading to sensitization since shellfish allergy isn't more prevalent in coastal regions or populations who consume higher than average quantities of shellfish.  I'd be curious to know if adult-onset shellfish allergy is caused by different protein sensitization (perhaps one in chitin) than the sensitizing protein(s) of childhood-onset shellfish allergy.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 04, 2013, 12:24:19 PM
At least with fish allergy, though-- the demographics DO support a model that suggests that exposure IS the lynchpin for development of the allergy.    It is most common (at least in Caucasian ethnicity) in countries where fish is a regular, even ubiquitous, part of the diet.

Sesame, same thing-- it's most common in cultures where it is pretty ubiquitous in the diet (Middle East), and less so in places where consumption is sporadic (as in N. America).
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: rebekahc on December 04, 2013, 12:50:06 PM
In your examples, has there been a causal relationship found or could it just be that higher rates of exposure result in higher rates of diagnosis?  Are the rates higher for just adult-onset or is it childhood-onset (perhaps due to earlier exposure in ubiquitous consumption diets)?

Really not trying to argue with anyone...just thinking out loud and asking out of curiosity...I have done no research on any of this.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 04, 2013, 12:57:43 PM
It's population correlation, of course--

and I have NO doubt that increasing exposure means increasing opportunity for contact among predisposed members of the population... but it looks (to me) as though increasing exposure through cultural dietary practices is what causes the frequency to reach some kind of saturation point.

It's both children and adults, though I'm not aware of data that pulls that one out specifically.  Just broad population data in incidence studies done in Scandinavia and the Middle East, as well as in SE Asia.

That seems to be what is happening in North America with sesame currently-- that it is attaining a level of ubiquity that means that everyone who will become allergic to it is becoming allergic.  The latency is being realized because of exposure, I mean.  I'm not sure that it supports the idea of "eating the allergen to prevent sensitization to it."

When you look at things that have always been ubiquitous in the diet in North America, though, like wheat, milk, egg, and to some extent some tree nuts like almond or walnut, the rates seem more stable and lower in incidence.

It'd be fascinating to look at rates in coastal versus inland areas and rates of fish consumption. 

In any event, consumption doesn't seem to actually be protective.  At least-- not anymore.  Whatever is causing additional food sensitization isn't playing favorites, it seems, and like everything else, the common wisdom that was perfectly valid for 40+ years about food allergy management doesn't necessarily apply to anyone now. Least of all to those born in the last 20 years.


I agree with the earlier observation that such advice is probably based on understanding of food immunotherapy methodology, and it may not even apply to those without the propensity to develop food allergy... of course, then that begs the question "is that this PARTICULAR child?"  The bottom line is that probably nobody knows-- the possibility probably exists if a genetic sibling already HAS developed food allergy, but beyond that,  it's anyone's guess as to whether it matters or not.

In any case, unless there are OTHER reasons to bring the allergen into the home, I would not necessarily call the evidence for "preventing allergy" to be compelling.  In the least.
 
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 04, 2013, 01:04:17 PM
Think about it this way--

IF this were true, peanut allergy rates should be falling as the North American food supply becomes ever more cross-contaminated with the stuff. 

Right?

But it hasn't. 
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: twinturbo on December 04, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
The other big reveal, which has actually been a huge pink elephant in the room the entire time, is that much of the data used in allergic disease has only been correlative because the statistical analysis has not been sophisticated enough to support causal relationships. The mathematicians here can explain it better than myself but to begin to statistically propose causality SEM (structural equation modeling) is required whereas what has been in use is only general linear regression.

In other words no matter how sophisticated the studies have been the math has been primitive, relatively speaking. I'm not saying DH & I are changing the world but we have pestered at least one large circulation allergy journal editor about moving towards SEM in order to study causal relationships. Yeah, when I first heard about that I needed my teddy bear and someone to hold me.

editing to add re: dust mite sensitization for the purposes of climate and regional populations Australia was included in an Australasia geographic boundary. I think what's interesting there is it's a population that has similarities to similar, young immigrant population based protoculture nations like USA, Canada, NZ (sorta, Maori have greater presence than other indigenous people in terms of percentage of population), and with Asian nations.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 04, 2013, 02:44:27 PM
Yeah-- and many such studies have such significant sampling methodology problems to begin with that gross correlation may turn out to be all that they are good for.

Country-sponsored birth cohort studies are the most useful here-- but those are quite rare, and almost never available in mixed-ethnicity nations.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 04, 2013, 03:07:58 PM
I think it's a fallacy to assume most shellfish allergy is adult-onset and therefore different from peanut (though there may be research suggesting such that I'm not aware of).  Personally, I know equal numbers of people with adult-onset peanut allergy as I do adult-onset shellfish allergy.  My kids and I are all childhood-onset shellfish allergy.

However, if it's true that shellfish allergy is statistically likely to be adult-onset, then that could suggest the possibility of sporadic exposure leading to sensitization since shellfish allergy isn't more prevalent in coastal regions or populations who consume higher than average quantities of shellfish.  I'd be curious to know if adult-onset shellfish allergy is caused by different protein sensitization (perhaps one in chitin) than the sensitizing protein(s) of childhood-onset shellfish allergy.

I was really just musing on how I would be thinking about it (and do think about my own kids), not trying to put forth and prove any definitive thesis. Most articles I have read say that shellfish allergy is extremely rare in young children and much more common in teens and adults. I have no idea if it's more prevalent where it is a staple or not. Adult onset shellfish allergy matches my experience in the world, too. I have never met a kid with shellfish allergy, but I know tons of adults. That does not contradict the idea that children AND adults frequently become allergic to other foods equally (like peanuts), just that shellfish seems to need ongoing sensitization to develop through ingestion. It seems rare to have a toddler who reacts on first ingestion of shellfish but not rare at all to have a toddler who reacts on first ingestion of peanuts which gives me the thought that maybe there are different pathways to sensitization. I don't really know at all but those are the kinds of things I consider when I think about whether to expose my kids to foods I am allergic to (they have no food allergies). I was really just saying how I developed my judgement on the subject given the general information available. I am no expert, just a mom trying to think through the same quandary. The only thing I really have done is try to minimize the dust because the suggested link between shellfish allergy and dust mite allergy. Just stabbing in the dark here, really  :P.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 04, 2013, 03:40:45 PM
Oh, as are we all, really-- just opinions.  :)  Conversation, that's all.  Things to muse upon.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: rebekahc on December 04, 2013, 04:29:57 PM
Oh, as are we all, really-- just opinions.  :)  Conversation, that's all.  Things to muse upon.

 :yes:



Interestingly enough, DD's shellfish allergy manifested early and behaves more like a severe peanut/egg/etc. allergy.  Her first exposure to shellfish was when she was 3 years old.  We were out to dinner and DH ordered shrimp.  DD was sitting next to him and ate two french fries from his plate (from the side of the plate furthest from the shrimp) which resulted in hives and vomiting.  When she was 4, she put two fingers in the touch tank at the aquarium and reacted with full-body hives.  At age 6 we attempted the ocean - after about 45 minutes the first hives started to pop up.  Grocery shopping, she gets blotchy and wheezy when we're near the seafood counter.  That's why I was wondering if different proteins might be involved with adult-onset (exposure sensitization) and childhood-onset presentations like DD.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: twinturbo on December 04, 2013, 04:37:49 PM
Oh, rebekah that's an interesting thought. It never occurred to me to think about pediatric-adult sensitization to different proteins or parts thereof.
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 04, 2013, 05:27:46 PM
Oh, as are we all, really-- just opinions.  :)  Conversation, that's all.  Things to muse upon.

 :yes:



Interestingly enough, DD's shellfish allergy manifested early and behaves more like a severe peanut/egg/etc. allergy.  Her first exposure to shellfish was when she was 3 years old.  We were out to dinner and DH ordered shrimp.  DD was sitting next to him and ate two french fries from his plate (from the side of the plate furthest from the shrimp) which resulted in hives and vomiting.  When she was 4, she put two fingers in the touch tank at the aquarium and reacted with full-body hives.  At age 6 we attempted the ocean - after about 45 minutes the first hives started to pop up.  Grocery shopping, she gets blotchy and wheezy when we're near the seafood counter.  That's why I was wondering if different proteins might be involved with adult-onset (exposure sensitization) and childhood-onset presentations like DD.

That is really interesting and I wonder? I find my own shellfish allergy extremely fascinating because I share it with my mother. As a kid, I'd assumed she was always allergic since she was a kid but it turns out we developed it at about the same age. Hers is mild, though, and she never ate shellfish growing when given the choice. I ate it all the time and my allergy is much more severe. Who knows? I mean, the people who get paid to figure it out haven't figured it out, so....
Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: CMdeux on December 04, 2013, 06:52:20 PM
Yeah-- I wonder, too, if adult-onset allergies are somehow more.... mutable in some ways, and less so in others.  Just-- different.

It seems like the conventional wisdom is that many childhood food allergies are HIGHLY mutable with external pressors of various kinds (which is what immunotherapy is based around) and that the adult versions tend to be less so in terms of MOVING the person's response from intolerant to tolerant... on the other hand, adult threshold doses seem to be more mutable in some cases, and honestly, less predictably so. 

Kids tend to have relatively stable sensitivity to allergens, and as they age into adolescence and young adulthood, something happens that destabilizes that-- which is where you get those very sad and scary anecdotes about teens or young adults being COMPLETELY caught by surprise when they anaphylax out of the blue to something that has "always been fine before."

Adults who have adult-onset food allergies have just always had that be so--  most people with adult-onset, there's this weird opening phase of things where even stuff you ARE NOT allergic to, you react to-- it's like your immune system views everything with some degree of suspicion, and some days, some things... more than others.  But unpredictable.

The allergen itself seems to matter less than the age of onset in some strange way, though the 'persistant' allergens tend to be of the "adult-type" right from the get-go in some people who are likely to have them be life-long.  Peanut, nuts, shellfish... though even there, people with them tend to age into that adult presentation where sensitivity can vary wildly, symptoms can vary wildly, etc.

Title: Re: Newbie
Post by: jschwab on December 04, 2013, 10:42:21 PM
Adults who have adult-onset food allergies have just always had that be so--  most people with adult-onset, there's this weird opening phase of things where even stuff you ARE NOT allergic to, you react to-- it's like your immune system views everything with some degree of suspicion, and some days, some things... more than others.  But unpredictable.


I'm curious about this because I had a very different experience with shellfish and milk which were very clear cut, no side reactions, no correlative sensitivities at all. And then with almonds, much more wonky and unpredictable with sudden reactions to different stuff (wool, greater sensitivity to pine, etc). Although I do have a lot of food intolerances that predate my allergies. When I was at the allergist I started telling her how I don't eat rice, even minute amounts of powdered rice in medications and vitamin supplements because it gives me a stomach ache and diarrhea and red spots and I was, like, oh, ding, ding, ding, maybe that was actually gearing up to an allergy, or WAS an allergy? She's testing it. Maybe I headed that one off at the pass and the others I just went too far to the breaking point of anaphylaxis? Most of the time I feel like I just overdid it on these foods and caused my own allergies. I has intestinal cramping for a full year and a half before this almond reaction which I thought was something else. Sometimes I think if I were more intuitive like I was with the rice, I could have avoided this?