I need help thinking through all of the questions I should be asking. My child is allergic to rats, and a snake in the science classroom is fed frozen rats. ds1 said that his eyes were bothering him and he had some eye swelling, so we are trying to sort out if he can stay in this classroom. Moving to a different science class is very complicated given schedule limitations.
Here are the questions I have come up with.
1. When the rats are removed from the freezer, where do they go until the snake's feeding time? Are they thawed in the classroom?
2. Is the snake fed in the classroom, and if so, where? Does it eat in its tank, and if not, where?
3. What is this particular snake's eating habits? Does the snake quickly eat the rats when placed before it, or are the rats in the classroom for awhile?
4. If it takes the snake awhile to eat, can it eat somewhere besides the classroom?
I would love to ask: Can't you just take the darned snake out of the classroom?!? That'd be a lengthy fight, though, and I need to solve this problem now.
Did I miss anything? What else should I ask?
A couple of other question you might consider are:
How are the frozen rodents handled? Are surfaces in the classroom touched with rodent contaminated hands?
How is the snake's cage cleaned? Not sure how much dander, etc would be left after digestion, but - Were is the poo discarded? (I would assume not in the classroom because it's really stinky.)
And a question you might consider... Is there anything else in the classroom that could be causing your DS's allergy symptoms? The reason I ask is just knowing a fair bit about feeding snakes, I really think the amount of rodent dander would be minimal - especially with frozen rodents. It's not like they're alive, running around, being physically agitated in such a way that the dander would go anywhere, KWIM? When snakes eat, it's rarely violent, so again, not much physical agitation to spread allergens (and if the snake is in a glass tank, it would have to be pretty violent to spread outside the tank).
I can give you the most likely answers to your questions...
1. Being cold blooded my guess would be thawed, but I really don't know - my snakes would never take anything but live prey. IMO, feeding frozen/thawed rodents would be analogous to taking the lid off a jar of pb and sitting it in a glass box (assuming the snake is kept in a tank) - not likely to cause even very sensitive people to react unless the allergic person was to stick their head right over the tank.
2. No one wants to move a hungry snake, so my best guess would be yes, in the tank in the classroom.
3. Most snakes will eat once every 7-10 days. If they are hungry, most will go after live prey quickly. It really depends on the snake's personality, but I would think a snake accustomed to eating frozen (thawed?) prey wouldn't let it sit too long, either.
4. See number 2. And, even if moving it was an option, the snake would probably be stressed and less apt to eat if being moved for feedings.
I would strongly suspect something else is at play here. I would be surprised if a frozen rat is causing that much of an issue. How often are his eyes bothering him? Is it every day? Does he have environmental or dust allergies? Is this your pa child? Is food in the classroom? Is he afraid of the snake or deeply upset about the rats being fed to it? Maybe he is more upset than bothered by allergens?
Wanted to share what are likely answers, if that helps you to sort things out.
1. Presumably they have some type of refrigeration. Rodents are normally thawed in the refrigerator, or sometimes in a ziplock bag submerged in water. After that, they generally need to be warmed. Doing this in the microwave is bad news, so generally they are warmed by placing them under the reptile's heat lamp for a bit.
2. I'm guessing the snake is fed in the tank - I've never fed them anywhere else, and usually you need to wait a few days after feeding to handle them again. So it wouldn't be recommended to feed it somewhere else than move it.
3. Snakes generally go for food pretty quickly - it's ill advised to leave thawed, heated rodents in the cage for more than about 15 minutes, because they will get gross. They typically need some encouragement to eat prekill. I never just dropped food into the cage and left - I would hold it with forceps and move it around, and wait for the snake to strike it.
4. Rodent shouldn't be in the cage for more than 15 minutes or so - thats pretty much the maximum time it took for my snakes to get their food swallowed.
One other thing to keep into consideration is that it probably isn't an option for them to wait until the end of the day to feed the snake - the heating lamps and pads are generally on a timer, and you need to insure a certain amount of heating time after they eat or the food can rot in their stomach.
I mentioned this in the other thread, but I would make sure to ask if they are using used rodent bedding to scent their rodents and make them more appetizing.
Wrt dander being elsewhere, it seems to me that the amount of dander elsewhere in the classroom would be insignificant. Or would not be any worse than cat and dog dander being left on desks from other students. Where I'm going with that is that someone allergic to cats and dogs probably doesn't have a lot of problem using various desks, but they could. I have a much worse problem when I sit on sift surfaces than I do hard ones like desks, however (and I sometimes have to change movie seats because of dander).
I can see how live rodents moving about in a cage could be problematic.
I'll note that dander is spreadable. If the teacher had just handled the rat and then passed your kiddo a paper, he could pick up the allergen that way. It happens to me all.the.time. when shaking hands and opening doors.
Thanks for all of the input thus far.
ds1 has no FA, many environmental and indoor allergens, and only animal allergy is rodents. His eyes swelled shut in less than 5 minutes of being in a nature center that had a rabbit and a guinea pig (and other animals, but he's not allergic to them). That was in the spring, at the height of pollen season and when he had a full allergy cup. At that point, he was just dealing with some congestion and not taking any allergy medicine. We went for allergy testing after the eye swelling shut. He tested positive to all rodents, as well as many other things. For years, he's taken an antihistamine daily after years of trial-and-error.
I forgot to ask about the snake's bedding. I should check if it's something to which he's allergic. He's severely allergic to several types of trees.
My online research shows that dander is worse in cold temperatures, so the freezing process may accentuate it.
I will ask if rodent bedding is used to prepare the food. Thanks for that tip, Janelle.
I thought about the issue of the container in which the frozen rats are thawed and instruments used to move them, but I can't imagine they aren't washed. I also would think the container and tongs (or whatever is used to move them) are used only on the rats and not used in science experiments. I had these questions on my original list, but I eliminated them to try to shorten it. Should I add them back, or is it common sense that they're isolated for potential disease reasons?
Just to clarify: rabbits are not rodents. They are lagomorphs. It's a common misperception.
We had a battle a few years ago - in part because the school was only begrudgingly willing to grant DS1 a 504 but it was going to be on their terms, not mine. At the time, DS1 was clearly reacting to the guinea pig in the classroom. His teacher let me know it was coming in but was happy to remove it if it caused any issues. Sure enough, eye swelling, increased asthma (pre-medicated to go out to recess/gym and re-medicated after), sniffly nose. I sent an email that said he was clearly reacting and it needed to be removed. Her response, well I don't see anywhere on his paperwork that he is allergic to guinea pigs. You are right, because I did not know. My allergies are severe enough that my eyes swell shut, hives develop, twitchy chest when I am in the same room as them - I reacted 5+ years after the guinea pigs left my grandmother's house just by residue in the carpet (I do not recommend sitting outside on the porch in NJ at Christmas but that is what I often had to do). So he had not been exposed. Had the allergist fax over a sheet with ammendments saying all rodents.
I was told that removing rodents from classrooms would not happen because the school had mice, rats and squirrels living in the walls and that would give me the opportunity to sue them. And for that matter, he could not react to all rodents because of the unwelcome visitors in the walls ~)
Having said all of that - I wonder if you are dealing with a case of not just the defrosted rat but the possibility of more rodents living in the walls or mold growing in the cabinets (my eyes always itched in biology lab, I suspected mold). So it may be more of a whole classroom issue than a singular snake/frozen rodent debate.
Wow, my allergist was dealing with pre-1912 info! I looked up Mac's comment, and apparently rabbits were classified as rodents until 1912. Geesh, the allergist listed rabbits as one of the types of rodents to which he was allergic!
I am also wondering if there is more to his reactions in the room than the frozen rats. It sounds like it could be any of his environmental allergens. The rats in a closed space(freezer), and in a container do not seem like they would be spreading much dander.
Sometimes walnut shells are used for herp bedding. If you find out that the snake's bedding is an issue, we had great luck with lining the cages with astroturf, cut to fit. Cheap, easy to wash, and easy to keep a few on hand and switch out.
Apparently the rats were thawing in a bowl during ds1's class. The thawing process could send dander airborne, yes? Is there ice on them when frozen? i can see dander caught in ice on the hair, and as the ice melts, some must go airborne, right?
IDK, and I am not trying to be contrary, truly, but I would think a thawing rat is wet? I think of wetness keeping dander down. Maybe it is not wet. Again, not trying to be contrary, but wondering if there are other allergens there causing him problems? Not seeing the rat situation, I really have no idea, other than I find it all rather gross, allergies aside.
But I also think of dust, dirty bedding, etc... I am wondering about all these things as I try to figure out dd's issuse at home as well. It is maddening to try to hone in on things. How confident are you in the control of all of his other allergens in a classroom, or that specific classroom?
I think, in order to get them to get the rodents, or snake out of the room, you have to prove or be certain that is the cause. of course, relocating the snake and its snake and its snacks for a few weeks may help determine that. But also, maybe a good, thorough cleaning by the custodial staff may also help?
But, you know his reactions, and how quickly they come on and what symptoms for various triggers as well.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time seeing how there is much dander involved from the rat unless the teacher handled a rat, didn't wash hands and then handed your DS a paper. I'm assuming that did not happen, right?
How far does your DS sit from the snake? Can he move as far from it as possible?
I don't know if the rat thawing entails submerging in water, under a heat lamp, or just thawed being at room temperature. There are multiple ways to do it. He doesn't remember if there was a heat lamp or any liquid in the bowl.
I am asking about the bedding.
Thanks for everyone's thinking about this. I know it's not a fun subject.
Of course, there is a big problem here for your ds if his eye or eyes swell shut in the room each day! So, it is important to figure it out or change his room if he has never had this problem before. But it does seem to be puzzling. How often they feed the snake, vs bedding and other allergens seems worth exploring. But in the meantime, he is having issues. Does he take an antihistamine? I presume he does and this is not being managed by that.
Very frustrating to figure out. I know, becaue I am trying to do this in my own home for dd.
He doesn't want to change his schedule, so I've got positive attitude helping guard against psychosomatic response. The plan is to have him reenter the room on a day the rats haven't been there and make sure he's fine. He has a field trip tomorrow. Thursday was feeding day last week, so I'm guessing rat thawing occurs again on Thursday. If that's correct, ds either will get to the room early Thursday morning before the teacher takes the rats to the classroom -- assuming the teacher still plans to thaw in the classroom -- or he will go to the room on Friday to make sure he's ok next day. I can't believe they won't be willing to thaw the rats elsewhere, so let's eliminate that variable and see if there's still an issue. It doesn't seem a big deal to ask him to set a bowl of thawing rats someplace else. I'm sure they could find another appropriate location.
That seems very reasonable, to try thawing somewhere else. If he reacts without the rats there, then you know to explore other avenues.
a bowl of thawing rats
Cannot even imagine. Lol.
You got it, Mac! Wouldn't that be distracting to learning for numerous students? It's at the front of the room!
Side note: How ironic is it that I am the parent stuck dealing with this issue? I feel sick thinking about any living being killed or eaten. DS doesn't even acknowledge what this is doing to me. :disappointed:
Or just thawing them in a ziplock bag? That is how I always did it - didn't take them out until immediately prior to feeding.
I'm wondering if there is something else about the other critters, their bedding, and their food that is in the classroom.
About how big is the actual room (please repeat for me if I missed it) -- how many feet by how many feet?
Does the school need a really good HEPA filter / air cleaner?
Are the ducts to that room full of mold?
How is this going, Mookie? Has he been back into the room? Today was snake feeding day, right?
I told ds not to go to class unless we got confirmation the rats weren't in the room today. I didn't hear anything. I don't know if anyone talked with ds. This situation is really dragging along. :-/
Thanks for asking, becca.
Would it be possible for the rats to be thawed somewhere other than in the classroom, and for the snake to be fed after school, with the custodial staff cleaning the room before the next school day?
Quote from: daisy madness on October 09, 2014, 04:31:45 PM
Would it be possible for the rats to be thawed somewhere other than in the classroom, and for the snake to be fed after school, with the custodial staff cleaning the room before the next school day?
That's exactly what I've asked for: rats thawing elsewhere, not coming into contact with the bowl and instruments that come into contact with the rats, and washing hands with soap and water if anyone touches the rats.
Feeding always is in the afternoon and he has class in the morning, so I don't have to negotiate that one.
I have a resolution on this matter. He's moving back to the original teacher, where he had no allergy issues in her room (he'd moved out of that class due to another schedule change, but we re-arranged it again to put him back with her ~)). It's unclear their exact reasoning why they picked this solution: teacher wouldn't thaw the rats outside the classroom, school wasn't willing to assume the rat was the issue and not something else in the room, or some other reason. I merely was told he's going back to the original teacher. The change will go into effect tomorrow (no school today for students, but teachers are there for professional development).
Well, glad it is resovled. He must be very behind in that class, now. :(
I'm glad there's a solution, but something still doesn't add up there.
However, you may have to settle for the "we'll never know" answer. Frustrating!
Hoping things settle and that his learning isn't permanently compromised in this class now . . . (and other class, what with the schedule change).