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Title: Would you trick your child?
Post by: YouKnowWho on March 15, 2012, 10:09:29 AM

So we have allergy testing on Monday.  And while I am probably over optimistic, but we think DS1 has outgrown egg.  DH decided one day while I was sick to rub raw egg over DS1's arms which had no reaction, so he decided to feed DS1 scrambled egg.  DS1 panicked after one bite and DH let him spit it out.  He didn't have a reaction, he just got nervous.

The last time we challenged eggs in the drs office, DS1 didn't have what I would call a marked reaction.  He felt uncomfortable and randomly itched at his neck.  No hives, but definitive scratch marks.  I opted with DS1 to stop the test, doctor was open to going either way. 

And then there is the other side of it.  DS1 had several reactions while on vacation last year during breakfast time.  It's tough to say what they were too because frankly eating out at breakfast with a gluten and egg allergic child is iffy at best, kwim?

We have noticed lately that DS1 has probably had some pyschosomatic reactions.  The most recent one being out to eat where he was accidentally served french fries (which he didn't eat) but one or two touched his burger.  Having said that, he couldn't have the french fries because they are in a shared fryer with numerous gluteny covered items.  His threshold for gluten is very low.  But again, scratching at the throat with no noticeable reactions (at least not his usual reactions).

Obviously, I want to discuss all of this with the dr if we are to consider doing a challenge.  And I wouldn't even push but egg could open up so more options for DS1 who struggles weightwise.  Why avoid something you don't have to - right? 

DH and I were discussing this last night, given that DS1 is probably overly cautious (and I totally understand why) that he will probably unintentionally skew an in office food challenge.  Our doctor does not do blind food challenges.  So we were potentially talking about doing our own blind food challenge without mentioning to DS1.  I honestly would not even consider this if we were not this far into the journey and familiar with DS1's reactions.  And also aware that reactions change but having a good idea of what might happen.

Are we crazy?

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: Mfamom on March 15, 2012, 10:20:35 AM

I have "thought" about doing that for almonds, but I won't do it.  My ds is older (13) and while I really think he's fine with tree nuts, "if" something happened and he had a reaction, it would be a real horrible thing for my son to know that I was deceptive. 
Think about how much trust our kids with allergies have in their parent.  They prepare their food, shop for their food, teach them about decision making and how to be safer when eating.

Plus, feedback is good during a challenge.  If they don't know they've eaten something and they have a little something going on, they might not say anything.
I would just do the challenge at the dr office so that if something happens, there is someone to assess him etc.
Maybe spend some time talking about how some people outgrow their allergies and that you really think he's good now with egg.  that if you weren't feeling very certain that he's one of the lucky ones who seems to have outgrown, you wouldn't ask him to try.  etc.
If you trick him, at some point you will need to tell him how you KNOW he isn't allergic anymore.  I would not mess with trust between you and your child. 
good luck

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: hedgehog on March 15, 2012, 10:31:55 AM

I would not do it.  BUt if you do, I would not think you are wrong, either.  I would not do it in part because of the reasons Mfamom had.  But also because I am, essentially a chicken when it comes to my kids' well-being.  And I just could not shake the "what if" thought enough to go through with it.

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: Carefulmom on March 15, 2012, 10:44:41 AM

When dd had her milk challenge, although it wasn`t the true blind challenge, the doctor started by telling dd that she had mixed applesauce with ice cream.  She was going to do a tiny bit of ice cream in applesauce and slowly increase the % ice cream.  In fact, the first dose was straight applesauce.  Dd had "symptoms".  The doctor then told her the truth that it had actually been straight applesauce.  This was a wake up call to dd.  We managed to move on to more of the challenge, and then dd did have some real symptoms and failed it.  Don`t recall what they were.  Maybe your doctor can try something like that, say the egg is mixed with something else, but give straight something else.

(ETA:  I just remembered:  she had lip swelling when she failed the challenge.)

I actually think your ds`s vague neck itchiness might be real.  One time years ago before any message boards, I let dd have fries in a restaurant.  I had no idea of fryers being used for more than one item.  She said she just didn`t feel well and lay down.  No real specific allergy symptoms.  After about an hour she was fine.  The not feeling well and lying down, then being fine, doesn`t really happen to dd.  When I discovered about shared fryers, I decided it was a cross contamination reaction.  It gives me the willies now to think I ever let her eat restaurant fries (allergic to milk, egg, peanuts at the time).

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: rebekahc on March 15, 2012, 10:56:34 AM

There's a reason double-blind is the gold standard for research. 

I know as a parent it's hard to think we're "deceiving" our child.  I think I'd try to look at it as using best practices to get an accurate response.  I guess you have to decide how important accurate results are.  It sounds as if gaining eggs would improve his quality of life such that it's probably worth it.  If he reacts blind, it will be a true reaction.  Otherwise, you'll continue to second-guess and possibly avoid unnecessarily.

Another option - since many kids who are egg allergic do well with baked egg, why not start by introducing that (rather than scrambled that's almost guaranteed to cause a reaction if he's at all allergic)?  Gradually work your way up to more and more egg or less and less cooked.  I'd probably involve him in that process.  Tell him about all the kids who can tolerate baked egg and get him on board with trying that.  I don't know that I'd necessarily let him know about cooking time/dosing/etc. just that baked egg is almost always okay.  I probably wouldn't tell him when you "up the dose" either.  Once you're comfortable and sure he's tolerating quite a bit of egg, I'd reintroduce the idea of trying something overtly eggy but cooked longer than scrambled eggs - maybe something custard-like?  From there I'd probably try for hard boiled eggs or pancakes (if you can make them with his alternate flour) and finally scrambled eggs, mayo, homemade ice cream, meringue - maybe do the things that don't *look* like eggs before the obvious eggs?

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: becca on March 15, 2012, 11:19:56 AM

We have been able to work dd up to more and more egg cooked in foods.  I knew this was safe because she tolerated that before we ever met an allergist.  he had advised us to remove all egg, cooked into things and otherwise, etc...  But after 10 years, I just decided dd could go back to normal banana bread and pancakes and she has been fine.  Now she is good with *french toast* and soft brownies!  New the past month.

But, I am honest with her...

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: candyguru on March 15, 2012, 11:40:36 AM

Personally I would not do this.  From the perspective of a food allergic person, if my parents had fed me an allergen without notifying me in advance, I would lose my trust and be angry, as you trust your parents to keep you safe and allergen free.  Each circumstance is different and each individual is unique, but that would just be my opinion how I would feel.. honesty and trust are most important

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: YouKnowWho on March 15, 2012, 11:50:25 AM

Unless he has changed his views, our allergist doesn't give much credence to baked in vs scrambled.  It's weird, he is very forward in his research and very aggressive in food challenges but the last time that I brought it up, he poo poo'ed it.

Now he was fine with DS1 having shared line items with egg as long as he was tolerating it (Kinnitoos - gluten free oreo-like cookies) but DS1 grew bored of them.  I think he just hit single brand cookie overload because they were our handy go-to treat.

His initial challenge was with scrambled cheesy eggs which he liked the taste of but I think he finally pysched himself due to repeated visits coming into the room to check his skin, ask about how he was feeling and check his blood pressure.

Honestly it's not something that I would have ever considered when he was younger.  But he is so clear on what is happening now in regards to his reactions that it has made me wonder.  He knows that eggs would make a dramatic change in his life - has expressed it numerous times.  We have chatted about the what if's but have also said that if he doesn't outgrow it's not the end of the world.

Carefulmom - he didn't eat a french fry, one or two of them touched his hamburger which DH removed prior to touching his own meal.  This is why I wonder if it was pyschosomatic.  He is extremely sensitive to gluten and there is a chance something happened in the back but I truly doubt that a french fry in a shared fryer that touched his burger left behind enough gluten to trigger a reaction.  Having said that, he knows that fries are off limits to him (with the exception of BK) which is why I wonder if it was truly a reaction.

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: YouKnowWho on March 15, 2012, 11:55:00 AM

On the trust issue -

That is exactly where I am torn.  I made a very big error a few years ago and without reading a label, gave DS1 Smarties (the peanut free Canadian version of M&M's).  Huge error that resulted in a very nasty reaction.  I honestly confused which child I was thinking about and heard so much about them here that I gave them to my gluten allergic child instead of my nut allergic child.

And he was fearful of anything that I fed him for months after and brings up the incident often.  In some ways, it was great for him to take the initiative to ask about ingredients but at the same time, it reminds me of my stupidity. 

So while doing a blind food challenge sounds great given that he likely has pyschosomatic issues at the same time, I would feel horrid if he did react.........

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: momma2boys on March 15, 2012, 12:12:42 PM

Nope, wouldn't do it.

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: Mookie86 on March 15, 2012, 01:13:01 PM

Given how he reacted to that mixup you described, I wouldn't trick him. 

It makes a lot of sense to try baked goods first.  Start with what there's a greater chance of passing so you see how much he can tolerate.  Will your allergist do this merely to appease you?

Any chance of working with an allergist who would be willing to do a blind trial, or at least do like was described with saying there was egg in something when there wasn't any there?

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: Scout on March 15, 2012, 01:17:26 PM

dd's only real obvius reaction has been to scrambled egg at one year old....dr...said it was ok to give to her....anyway...whole face swelling.......benedryl helped....journey began

she could always eat baked goods, pancakes even....always

food challenge at 5......in office.....hard boiled egg.....she was nervous but understood what it meant if she passed.....she had French toast for the first time that day......

I say just challenge in Dr.....but he has to understand........

Maybe the applesuce technique would work........by the Doctor.

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: notnutty on March 15, 2012, 01:23:50 PM

I wouldn't do it either. My DS has been gearing up for almond challenge. We have discussed it at length the reasons why we don't think he is allergic, and affirm his fears with the science and negative results we have gotten.

Maybe he just needs a little more time...

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: Mfamom on March 15, 2012, 01:36:21 PM

Quote from: notnutty on March 15, 2012, 01:23:50 PM

I wouldn't do it either. My DS has been gearing up for almond challenge. We have discussed it at length the reasons why we don't think he is allergic, and affirm his fears with the science and negative results we have gotten.

Maybe he just needs a little more time...

yes.  I agree.  let it be on HIS terms.  talk to him about it and when he's ready, he'll tell you.  I know that it would make life a whole lot easier for you, but especially after reading about the Smarties thing, I would not risk that situation again. 

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: CMdeux on March 15, 2012, 07:22:32 PM

Will your doc 'start' the challenge with the "vehicle" all by itself?

I mean, if you ask him to, that is.

I'd just explain that you'd feel a lot more confident (and that so would your DS1) if he KNEW that he wasn't necessarily going to be getting egg in what he's eating at least part of the time.

No to running your own blind challenge, btw.  Not unless you can get your DS to GIVE YOU PERMISSION first.  My DD, she might give us that kind of permission at this point.

Your DS is still a little young for this, honestly... it's a LOT to consider and process.  :grouphug:

I agree with the others that he'll probably tell you when he's ready.  It's a good sign that he's realizing how much different things could be with egg in the mix.  That means he's getting there.   :yes:

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: maeve on March 15, 2012, 08:01:29 PM

Quote from: CMdeux on March 15, 2012, 07:22:32 PM

<snip>
It's a good sign that he's realizing how much different things could be with egg in the mix.  That means he's getting there.   :yes:

I just want to say that the realization that things can be different with egg is more than half the battle.  Hopefully, you will not end up with a child like mine who has only known not eating egg and thinks the world is just fine that way.  She does not see the world that even having baked egg would open up to her.  She is still adamantly refusing to eat items with baked egg in them. 

So I may have to resort to the trickery.  The one problem:  We've never routinely given her baked goods, so she'll be suspicous if I start pushing muffins on a daily basis.

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: nameless on March 15, 2012, 08:39:14 PM

Now, as an adult --- I would need to be tricked :)  Psychosomatic affects are real, real to the person. It's hard not to help it sometimes and it's mostly out of your control until you can trick your head back into what is real.

Not saying you should trick him, I don't agree with tricking a child...but double blind and letting him know it's double blind...I don't see why your doctor won't try it that way. I think they do double-blind but someone in the office does know what is what (just not the parent, doctor, nurse in with the  person).

That being said --- I had an adult friend who did desensitization for peanuts. They put the peanut in pudding so you just swallowed, no chewing. Why? B/c apparently the allergen still "takes like hivey weirdness" She noted she could eat small amounts of peanut from the study, but it was a horrible horrible taste.

I think there is something to being able to still taste the allergen...and then reacting based off the taste even if you aren't really truly reacting. It's a body/memory thing, no?

Adrienne

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: SpudBerry on March 31, 2012, 01:42:55 PM

Do you think you might be able to do both?  Warn your child that you will be trying to get them to "blindly" try the food - that some time in the next day or two, or week - what ever the time - that you will be secretly slipping some of the allergen into their food.  Explain your reasons, and see what they say.

Title: Re: Would you trick your child?
Post by: Mookie86 on March 31, 2012, 02:32:38 PM

Quote from: SpudBerry on March 31, 2012, 01:42:55 PM

Do you think you might be able to do both?  Warn your child that you will be trying to get them to "blindly" try the food - that some time in the next day or two, or week - what ever the time - that you will be secretly slipping some of the allergen into their food.  Explain your reasons, and see what they say.

Excellent idea!  It maintains honesty, but still leaves the element of the unknown and unexpected.