The other thread was getting so long I figured it'd be easier this way. So first let me say on Monday afternoon I dropped off my 504 plan request in writing to both the principal (haven't heard from her yet) and the woman in charge of special needs education (she called within the hour to reschedule our meeting). She was nicer and more understanding but still obviously very "this is our policy bla bla bla" Here's where we stand now. With the doctor's letter, that I conveniently left at home and had to come back home to get it after the meeting lol, she is going to contact the school district counsel and their risk management company (am I the only one that finds that insane that a school has a risk management company on speed dial?) by this weekend. Then on Monday she will contact the principal. A letter will go out, AGAIN, this time saying there is additional information and that now his classroom is peanut free and again include a list of safe foods. I asked her if parents complain will they change it and she said not with a doctor's note they won't.
So that's a great start. ooh but get this when I was making my case for his room to be peanut free, I brought up Nathan Walters and she goes "who is that?"
She used that damn word "reasonable" again, starting to hate that word. She said they are in the process of reviewing all their policies and what she would like to see is 2 level of policies one for the majority of the school and one specifically for children with disabilities. I thought great, but that doesn't help me now.
Now here's where I need help. I asked again about the 504 plan, she kept telling me I don't really need one, and she doesn't think they will do one for me because the health care plan is exactly the same. I said I'm sure it is, but we're military and we move and I want something that will follow him from school to school and she said a health care plan would. So that's what I need help with figuring out if she's right or wrong. DS already has a health care plan, but I never had a meeting, or had accomodations put in it. All we did was have the doctor's note simpley confirming the allergy and prescription etc. More like a what to do in case of emergency, not policies for him for his individual circumstances. I said I want a 504 plan that I will sign (I know that's not always what happens) and she then told me that a parent isn't involved with the writing of the plan. I said I will be at the meeting and she said yes but it's not you who writes the plan. So I said, ok so what are my rights, can they deny my son?" and she said "you can ask for a meeting, but they can deny the meeting request if they don't think he's eligible or if they feel the health care plan does enough" I asked if I could appeal that and she said of course.
So now I'm giving her a couple of days to get things sorted out with the doctor's letter then we will see. But the clock is still ticking on their response to the 504 plan request.
So that's what I need help with figuring out if she's right or wrong.
She's full of crap. She may or may not be deliberately playing you. But it doesn't matter.
They CANNOT say that they "don't do 504 plans" for ________. Period. It's against federal law to make blanket policy like that.
If a 504 plan and a IHCP are "just the same" then say
"Oh, good. Then we won't have any trouble just writing it up as a 504 plan. Thanks. I really prefer that."
HOLD. YOUR. GROUND. on this one. Seriously. YOU are right, and they. are. wrong. :yes:
(Can anyone locate Stinky's thread on this very subject? Located in this very state, too, I might add.... <sigh>)
Other things that you need to ask/state-- VERBATIM-- at this point;
"Are you denying my son's right to a determination of eligibility under Section 504?"
"Are you stating that the district considers some medical conditions or diagnoses to be automatically ineligible under Federal Law?
Perhaps they should run both of those statements past an attorney, in fact. ;) Be sure to write down who said it if you get confirmation to either question, by the way-- and LET THEM KNOW YOU'RE DOING IT.
Of COURSE you don't "have" to be included when a 504 plan is written. Well, not technically, I suppose. But who at the school is an "expert" in the management of your son's individual condition and all of it's quirks, hmm?
State; "Oh, yes of course. Who will be present at the meeting who has greater expertise and experience in good management of my son's allergy, then?" (Be ready to write down the name-- and ask for credentials if they give you one.)
WRITING the plan must, under law, be a collaborative process. Finding eligibility must, as well. And that is where your district is CLEARLY breaking the law.
Show them Gloucester if they drag their heels. (Also available at Wrightslaw-- and probably here, too.)
Next step, too, could be to call OCR for technical assistance in understanding your child's rights as they pertain to eligibility determinations and whether or not the district can deny him a meeting to evaluate eligibility on the basis of the nature of his diagnosis (which is what you're being told).
THEN, you can fire back with "That's not what I was told when I contacted the Office of Civil Rights. Maybe YOU should call them for technical assistance yourself."
She stopped just short of saying 504 plans weren't for children with ltfa. So she knew where the line was. What she said was typically for children with allergies, they have a health care plan and that 504 plans were usually for children with adhd who would then have their own health care plan for their meds. So he didn't outright say it, but she certainly implied that it'd be a huge waste of time. She did say that they might deny my request based on his already having a health care plan. I kept asking though. I even specifically said well then why can't I have it as a 504 instead of the health care plan and she said they'd be identical and really tried to convinced me it wouldn't be worth it. You could tell she was trying to turn me away from the idea. So right now I'm getting his classroom peanut free through the doctor's letter.
So now am I stuck waiting the 30 days until they have to respond to me? Is there anything else I can do in the meantime until they do?
Yes-- keep calling and e-mailing until you get a meeting date for an evaluation.
Be pleasant... but a steamroller-- just "deaf" to hemming and hawing about whether or not it's a waste of time.
"Great! It should be easy to go over the evaluation, then, since we're all familiar with {child}'s medical history. I'm sure that his IHCP will make this easy for everyone."
MAKE them tell you "no."
Then record it in a letter of understanding, and bounce it back to them asap with a short time-line for response.
As long as the evaluation isn't formalized, them responding to your physician's letter the way they have is-- largesse. Seriously. There's no legal reason why they MUST keep doing it. Or why they'd need to tell you if they stop.
Remember, you have VERBAL agreement from one administrator that he SHOULD qualify, yes? WRITE THAT DOWN-- letter of understanding again! Oh, look-- now you have something to write to them about. ALL of them.
What? Oh-- your natural "confusion" about hearing so many... different... confusing.... things. After all, the LAW seemed SO clear when you did some investigating. OCR made it seem very straightforward, in fact. After all, who can fault you for seeking "clarification" about this conflicting information, hmm? Heheheh. :evil:
For some reason I cannot find Stinky's thread here -- but this is link to the original one at old boards.
It should be good help!
http://allergy.hyperboards.com/index.php?action=view_topic&topic_id=4843&start=1 (http://allergy.hyperboards.com/index.php?action=view_topic&topic_id=4843&start=1)
Also, sounds like the Sped lady is trying to claim that having a health care plan is a mitigating circumstance that would mean no 504 needed? Well, she's full of goose poop.
If your allergist is willing, I'd suggest asking the allergist to write additional letter stating that you are most knowledgable and/or EXPERT in the care and management of the child's LTFA and should ABSOLUTELY be fully included in all aspects of the 504 WRITTEN accommodation plan.
Here is link to Gloucester -- give your Sped lady a copy of it as well:
http://www.wrightslaw.com/law/504/OCR.va.peanut.pdf (http://www.wrightslaw.com/law/504/OCR.va.peanut.pdf)
Meanwhile, keep on them about necessary and appropriate accommodations for your child. Use those terms always!
Document each/every instance of safety issues, exclusion, and discrimination based on hidden medical disability that has already occurred AND what happens from now until the eligibility meeting. Insist on eligibility meeting date.
Did you ever check to see if your school district has online policy info for their "version" of 504 procedure?
Patience and perseverence.
Outwit, outsmart, OUTLAST.
You can do this!
:thumbsup:
Lianne the 504 coordinator may not even be in your school. Our county has one that oversees the delegates at the school.
Not sure if your county is online, if that is the case, search it to see if you can find a name for the 504 coordinator. If you have no luck, call the county office to see who it is. Do not trust the principal to forward this information to them, nor the special ed coordinator.
You need the 504. Trust me - I have the IHCP and it doesn't mean diddly squat. It is a health plan between you and the nurse, possibly from the teacher in regards to a medical document only. It has NOTHING to do with accomodations from a food standpoint.
Quote from: CMdeux on January 26, 2012, 02:00:17 PM
So that's what I need help with figuring out if she's right or wrong.
She's full of crap. She may or may not be deliberately playing you. But it doesn't matter.
They CANNOT say that they "don't do 504 plans" for ________. Period. It's against federal law to make blanket policy like that.
If a 504 plan and a IHCP are "just the same" then say
"Oh, good. Then we won't have any trouble just writing it up as a 504 plan. Thanks. I really prefer that."
HOLD. YOUR. GROUND. on this one. Seriously. YOU are right, and they. are. wrong. :yes:
(Can anyone locate Stinky's thread on this very subject? Located in this very state, too, I might add.... <sigh>)
Ditto (bold near the top was mine). She doesn`t want a 504 plan, because it holds the school accountable. Dozens of people on this board have posted the exact same scenario over the years. With only an IHP, if they don`t feel like following it, then you are at their mercy. With a 504 (that may include the IHP),
they must follow it or lose federal funding. This is key. Don`t let your son be denied the right to legally enforcable accomodations This lady is way behind the times. 504s have been granted for food allergies for years now.
I still remember something I read on the old board. I think it may have been notnutty who said this. She has a great comeback for anything and really knows her stuff. The school said "he doesn`t need a 504" and someone on our board said "needed or not, if he is eligible he`s eligible." I love that line.
Moving on to the OPs post to comment.
Quote from: LianneV on January 26, 2012, 03:33:54 PM
She stopped just short of saying 504 plans weren't for children with ltfa. So she knew where the line was. What she said was typically for children with allergies, they have a health care plan and that 504 plans were usually for children with adhd who would then have their own health care plan for their meds. So he didn't outright say it, but she certainly implied that it'd be a huge waste of time. She did say that they might deny my request based on his already having a health care plan. I kept asking though. I even specifically said well then why can't I have it as a 504 instead of the health care plan and she said they'd be identical and really tried to convinced me it wouldn't be worth it. You could tell she was trying to turn me away from the idea. So right now I'm getting his classroom peanut free through the doctor's letter.
So now am I stuck waiting the 30 days until they have to respond to me? Is there anything else I can do in the meantime until they do?
I would not ask a question like "why can`t .....", because it just gives them ammunition to think of reasons why they don`t think he needs it. I`d really try not to get into a debate about this. So what if they would be identical? One is enforcable and the other isn`t. Sure, my daughter`s 504 could be just an IHP instead. And then when they felt they didn`t need to have an epi trained adult on a field trip (she is in high school and the high school tried to take away that accomodation), with only an IHP,
they might have succeeded in taking the accomodation away. With a 504, they couldn`t. They tried and I call the state on them. State Office of Educational Equity Compliance called the school and said you can`t do this. With only an IHP, dd would have then been excluded from all field trips. Don`t let them trick you into thinking that a 504 and IHP are the same.
Even if they are the exact same accomodations, a 504 is enforcable and an IHP isn`t. With an IHP it is totally voluntary whether they follow it or not.If I were in your shoes, I`d try to eliminate verbal conversations and do everything by email now. I`d still be friendly, but with email you have a chance to think through what you want to say. Or ask us. Also, with email, maybe you will get lucky and she will actually put some of this misinformation in an email. Maybe she will dig herself into a hole.
And it is irrelevant that according to her a 504 is a waste of time. I would come back with something like, according to _____ he qualifies, therefore I am requesting a 504. It doesn`t matter if she thinks it is a waste of time or not. If he qualifies, then he qualifies. I`d really try and limit the discussion on it.
I find that when someone is being difficult, I can politely ignore what they say, by using the word "nevertheless". She says a 504 is a waste of time because blah blah blah. I reply, (totally ignoring the reasons she gave that she finds it a waste of time) "Nevertheless, I am requesting a 504." I`d start making the word "nevertheless" one of your comebacks to them and not even bother to address why she does not feel your ds should have one, needs one, etc.
She's playing the game. I'm sure she knows that LTFA are eligible for 504...even you noted how she stopped just short of saying they weren't.
Stay firm in your request for 504. The IHCP and 504 may be similar, however, the 504 is a better document that has accountabity. The IHCP is only overseen by the nurse...vs the 504 having a team approach and documented accomodations for both safety and inclusion (the IHCP is a nursing plan, and does not address inclusion). Also, teachers view the IHCP as a "nurse thing" that they don't get involved in; vs the 504 that is EDUCATIONAL plan and they are a key member of that 504 team. This is critical since your child spends 80% or more of time in the classroom. Also per FAAN, most reactions at school happen in the classroom and on field trips (not in the lunchroom as people may think).
I liked the line above from Survivor: Outwit, Outsmart, Outlast.
The law is on your side. You WILL get the 504 if you want it. And since it's a gvt supported document by law, it is MUCH more transferrable to another schools than an IHCP which is only overseen by the nurse in your building. The new school can review the 504; but it is something that goes with the child. And, principals/administrators/teachers change ALL the time...having a signed 504 is key to continuity of your child's safe/inclusive plan.
Believe me, Spec Ed Director *is* the expert. They just don't like to be the decision maker, because the 'building principal' is the decision maker.
They all play a game with Special Ed (IEP, 504) etc...this is their full time job.
Some are helfpul in interest of children. But many will also put you off because other administrator (principal, who is the building 504 coordinator, usually) doesn't want the accountability of 504.
IT's necessary to keep it all IN WRITING because the clock is then ticking with your records of requests. They will eventually grant it becuase of their liability if they do not -- again the LAW is on the side of the LTFA child -- if an adverse event occurred and they refused the 504, they are going to be liable.
Well, another story in the news. This one sums up why the classroom MUST be allergen free (and lunchboxes not opened in the classroom).
This boy got another child's snack during a movie party and almost died.
http://www.ketv.com/r/30307603/detail.html#.TyHcChQh2No.facebook (http://www.ketv.com/r/30307603/detail.html#.TyHcChQh2No.facebook)
I'd bring this article to the meeting...or send it ahead of time along with the Nathan Walters story. Remind them in a cover letter that they are refusing a safe environment for your child, something that has proven fatal or near-fatal in other similar situations.
If it were me, I'd not be fooling around with a 504, I'd go straight for the jugular: OHI under an IEP. Why tinker?
The way schools are mired in financial crises, anything that can be addressed with a 504 is probably going to be manuevered into an IEP. It's better all the way around and has enforeceable procedural safeguards. My son's LTFA and Asthma are addressed under an IEP through OHI (Other Health Impairment). He's scheduled for Honor's Physics, AP economics and U.S. history, (highschool), and on the High Honor Roll. IEP already addressed for next year. <shrug>
as to IEP -- all the schools we have dealt with would hardly entertain the thought of IEP for LTFA -- none could possibly "see" the link between that and educational need . . . would not even refer to eval . . . yes, individual mileage (and school district, and eval team) may vary . . .
Boy do I have an update to share!
I finally heard from the school district lady (coincidentally after I called her office twice today) she was supposed to already be discussing it with the principal by Monday, but she only just heard back from the attorney and risk mgmt company today. she said they gave her lots of info to review and she's meeting with the superintendent tomorrow and will update me by the end of tomorrow or Monday. She also said "then we can discuss the next steps for getting you the 504" a little different from the "oh you don't really need one, I'm not sure we can do one" lol
Then get this, so I got in contact with another PA mom at DS's school. She is equally enraged. Her DD is in the 3rd grade and even the smell makes her sick and she's allergic to a lot of things. So it turns out when the policy changed back in October the principal CALLED her. hmm...so at our meeting, I was told she was under the impression I was informed, lady you're the one who made the phone call, wouldn't you know if you called me. This mom doesn't let her daughter eat anything from school and sends her in with all snacks and food, so she said look as long as they don't contain nuts I'm ok with made in a facility with, which I think is very understanding of her. Principal said oh we won't let anything in with nuts, well fast forward to her daughter telling her otherwise. So she went to the district nurse who was just as condescending to her as she was to me. She also went to the district woman, same results as my meeting more or less. So now she's giving them a couple of weeks and will follow up with a meeting to the superintendent. I told her tell me when and we'll go in together. She's very nice and we are both thrilled to be able to team up and deal with this. She didn't know much about 504 plans so I shared everything you guys have taught me and she will be handing in a written request for one too. I wonder if the principal will realize I had something to do with that, since they made it to the 3rd grade without having to do one for her.
oooh and...DS told me that he had lunch with a boy I know brings his in. So I called the nurse but it wasn't the normal nurse it was the other one who told me these matters are dealt with by the principal, never has before but ok. So I get an email within a couple of hours saying that she looked into it and the boys wanted to sit together and the lunch lady checked it, deemed it was ok and allowed it. She said if I prefer he'd stay with the hot lunches kid. I wrote back on Monday (this happened on Friday) and said I would rather he stay with the kids with hot lunches. In the same email I asked her how the 504 planning is going. I wrote this email at 9am on Monday, still no reply to it!
I think that's it, lots to write
Way to go!!
Sounds like very good progress to show for all of your hard work so far! :thumbsup:
Here's the newest update! Just got off the phone with her again. She had a meeting with the superintendent and they are reversing their policy and no peanut, peanut products or products possibly containing peanuts will be allowed into his classroom!!!! She made a point of mentioning how they can't control what kids bring in their backpacks but snacks and birthday foods will be restricted from his room if they aren't safe! Now, I know I've still got a fight ahead getting the 504 plan going, but right now I feel so thrilled that I've won part of this battle. I know they can easily change this policy as they've proven in the past but at least for now it's safe.
Remember how it was suggested here not to allow them contact with DS's allergist, well she has asked me to come in on Friday, to follow up on some more details and to sign a release giving them permission to discuss his medical records with his doctor. I know not to do that, but can someone tell me how I refuse, is there a basis, can they make me? She said it's to work on his 504 (which she is now taking seriously) to make sure they know what is needed from it. I don't want to grant them a release so I just some help phrasing it and what alternatives I can give.
I would contact your child's allergist now to get a letter that spells out what precautions that the allergist recommends. That should suffice. I don't know of any allergists that will get involved in helping craft accommodations for 504 plans (and they shouldn't be involved in that, either). I think you can simply politely refuse to sign the release. It's not needed for a determination of eligibility. A letter from the child's allergist stating that the child has life-threatening food allergies is all that is generally needed (letter should also state need for EpiPen).
People on this board usually tell the school that the school can send the questions to you, the parent, and you will forward it to the allergist. Then you get back to the school with a response from the allergist. It is your son`s legal right to medical privacy. The school cannot force you to sign a release. As far as how to nicely refuse, I have not been in that position. I am sure someone here can tell you how to nicely refuse.
"I'm sorry-- I don't understand why you can't communicate with our physician through us. S/He views us as part of our son's management team."
"We're not comfortable not being included in communication with our physician regarding our child. I'm sure that you understand."
"What questions did you have?"
"I wouldn't want the school to waste any time during an emergency by calling either us or the physician."
"Our physician's time is very limited; s/he really cannot permit consults with non-patients." (If, of course, this is the case-- you could ASK if your physician's office is okay with the school calling them up every time they feel like it, and talking to the doctor... for free. ;) About stuff that s/he's already put into writing... just to see if they can twist his/her words and weasel out of what they don't feel like doing, I mean. I'm sure that the doc won't mind. LOL.)
Oh, and do NOT lose sight of the 504 objective. They may well have just thrown up a smokescreen in the hopes that you'll give it up. But remember how fast they changed the policy?
They can do it again, too. :-/
Great updates!!
Yes, they do that sometimes...provide the accomodations when they realize you aren't giving up (and they cannot refuse the 504 -- see OCR Letter to Gloucester) but they will hope that if they do grant them along with an "Individual Health Care Plan" that you will be happy with that. You've worked too hard to accept that. Still insist that it be a 504 Plan (which the IHCP is part of). Just giving you the heads up as this has happened to some people.
Sounds like the Sup't and district lawyers know they need to grant appropriate accomodations such as a nut-free classroom (standard practice!). Your principal was stonewalling (as many do) since he thinks that makes him less responsible (it doesn't).
Agree with CM above on good responses regarding contacting allergist.
:thumbsup:
Thank you for the great ideas on how to phrase it. You know my husband always teases me cause I'm the naive optimist and he's the cynical one. As much as I want to be thrilled that they've seen the right way to do this, in my heart, I truly feel that they are only doing this to shut me up. It's strange cause at the end of the day this is all that I wanted and had they agreed in the beginning, I might not have really forced the issue (although after hearing everything from you guys, I know better now) so now they've given me essentially what I wanted but I feel like it's just a way for them to get out of what else they have to do. So I won't be letting go of what else needs to be done. We shall see how the meeting goes. As soon as I got off the phone with her, I called my new friend whose DD is at the school and also as severely allergic, turns out she got a call too, to tell her the policy is back to the way it was and she also has to set up a meeting with her. I warned her to be careful about what they might ask of her, since they had already asked me. Should make the valentine's day party fun. If we're having one, it's a week away and I haven't heard anything yet!
I want to thank everyone here so much, I knew I wasn't going to give up, my son's life is too importnat, but I've gotten so much input here on how to get this done!
:thumbsup: Way to go!!
(Oh, and 'haven't gotten any info' on the upcoming V-Day debauchery.. .um... yeah. I'd tuck that in my back pocket for the upcoming meeting, too. You need to be included in party planning in the classroom. Yet another thing that is perfect for a 504 plan and... er... not-so-appropriate for a IHP. ;) )
1 step forward, 2 steps back. I'm very annoyed and I need to know who to yell at. Ok so the policy changed hasn't been passed down to the staff yet, which is fine, I mean they only told me yesterday at 3:30. I decided to walk DS to class to tell his teacher what was going on. Well he had a sub last school day, but his regular teacher had been there in the morning soI think maybe her daughter was sick, it didn't seem like a planned thing. I asked the sub if she knew about his allergy and she said yes "she" told her. I foolishly didn't clarify who she is. Well today we walk in, and it's a different sub again. So I told her about his allergy and asked if she had been told. She said and I quote "no, it wasn't in my notes" ok so um, the policy hasn't officially changed, so the staff would have let something unsafe through, she wouldn't have known, if DS didn't speak up, who knows what could have happened. I do teach him to speak up, but sometimes in the rush he may not get to, or he may think she knows better. I'm working on emphasizing that but it's not perfect everytime.
They have a "system" where the kids are flagged int he computer. I don't think subs have time to read through each student file on the computer. That should be part of whatever info she is given about the class right??
:yes: Subs are particularly high risk, yes. Any time that there is a break of some sort in the regular routine, really.
That is right. Subs should be given an info sheet or something. We had so many subs that this was one of the main reasons I knew my child needed a formal plan.
Definitely should be part of your 504.
lianne,
If you would like to PM me your email address. I can email you the sub sheet I prepare at the begninng of every school year. I provide several copies to the teacher so that a copy can go to the cafeteria, art, music, and gym teachers. A couple of years, I even laminated the cafeteria copy; didn't have time to do so this year.
Keep pushing! You are doing a great job. :happydance:
A "policy" one day may be gone the next. Get everything you need to keep your child safe in writing!
GREAT JOB SO FAR!!!! Celebrate the smaller victories, but keep your eye on the prize!
Quote from: notnutty on February 07, 2012, 02:21:10 PM
A "policy" one day may be gone the next. Get everything you need to keep your child safe in writing!
Yep, administrators change often and policies, or "guidelines" (especially) can always chaange. But the 504 stays with the child and is based on the child's specific needs.
Quote from: rainbow on February 07, 2012, 03:48:47 PM
Quote from: notnutty on February 07, 2012, 02:21:10 PM
A "policy" one day may be gone the next. Get everything you need to keep your child safe in writing!
Yep, administrators change often and policies, or "guidelines" (especially) can always chaange. But the 504 stays with the child and is based on the child's specific needs.
This is so true. Most often things about what go on in a school are principal-centered so even in the same school district, you can have different "policies." And then within schools, the management of a classroom is up to a teacher, so you can have different policies within the same grade level depending on the teacher. That's why a 504 is so important. The precautions taken to keep a child safe cannot change because of personnel changes.
Also, my principal likes to remind me often that "guidelines" are subject to change and interpretation - they are *not* policy (which is more formal and based on state laws/regulations). And if you take note, most districts will have these "policies" labeled as guidelines.
Even more reason 504 is necessary since it is based on the individual.
rainbow, exactly. My county was the first in the area to adopt districtwide guidelines but there's still a lot of variance among schools and still a lot of food in the classroom.
. . . piling onto maeve's post . . . and still a
WHOLE LOT of NONCOMPLIANCE
due to "no teeth" to the "policies".
Wonder how it would be viewed if there was such "spotty" compliance to, say,
the no drug OR no weapons "policies".
Why is "compliance" voluntary so far as certain staffers . . . or cupcake queen PTO parents?
Just asking. ;)