My DD is at a prom dinner tonight. I found her epipen on the bed and called her in a panic thinking she didn't have any epis with her. She informed me that she only carries one with her and she does not need two.
I said that she really needs to have two with her at all times but we'll talk about it later --- she told me, "No Mom, we will not discuss it later."
She thinks one epipen is enough---
how do I convince this pigheaded kid that she needs to have two epis with her at all times?!
Oh that's a tough one GP! I probably don't have great advice since my DD is younger. I would probably use the example of the recent fatality where the college kid used an epi, but it malfunctioned and he died. I hate using scare tactics, but I also wonder if they are sometimes necessary.
Good luck and I hope your dd has a wonderful and safe time at the prom!
I think I'd start by trying to see why she doesn't want to carry two. What does she carry in-a purse? Does it comfortably fit two?
My oldest has had a biphasic reaction (fortunately, the second reaction kicked in as we were getting out of the ambulance and heading into triage), so I'd start there and bring up the story HK mentioned if necessary.
I hope her prom is absolutely magical.
I agree. start by asking why. It might be worth considering switching to the Auvi-Q if her reason is the size of the epi.
Yup-- and by recognizing that the ONLY way to win this one is persuasion, not coercion.
:-/ After all, most people who need one don't even carry ONE, so she's in better company than that, at least.
Would her allergist scare her straight?
being a girl means you can carry you autoinjector more easily!
finding a bag for a teen boy that is acceptable is difficult imo.
Yup. She's got it soooooo much easier as a girl. The Auvi was a life saver for DH in speech. With his category he doesn't carry anything extra. Only has his suit and a briefcase looking lunch bag that I've been meaning to post about. But it can't go in the cold lunch bag, and that stays in the cafeteria anyway. He's been able to have one in his inner breast pocket and one in a side coat pocket or front pocket and no one knows.
I understand what a pain it is to find an evening bag for epis, but when I buy my evening bag I make sure I can fit two epis and a lipstick. They are around.
There have been a very few occasions I've been okay with DS carrying one. But the general rule is two. And for any parties (he's had four in the last eight days) and for any eating events must have two.
This is nonnegotiable. I don't think it's a matter of persuasion. Once DS drives if he drives without a seatbelt we will suspend privileges. I might take a less confrontational tack at first, but in the end it's nonnegotiable.
This is also the strategy that we employ-- that this is just like wearing a bicycle helmet or seatbelt, I mean, and that we'll suspend privileges over it (which is one of the few categories of infractions like that).
But also recognizing that parenting teens requires a different toolbox... and that just "you're grounded for pulling this stunt, and it had better not happen again" isn't enough-- because if that is the further that it goes, then the problem just gets translated into realms where you DO NOT have control over what they do and when and how.
E.g.-- college.
In other words, you have to get through to them about the WHY of some absolutes which are about basic safety if they are going to continue doing them once they turn 18/leave home.
Unfortunately, this is where a parent with a fairly lax approach can do a ton of damage in the long term. Which is why I recommend pulling in an allergist or research papers which recommend the "two epis" approach for medical reasons (and they do).
Quote from: GingerPye on May 04, 2013, 06:37:55 PM
I said that she really needs to have two with her at all times but we'll talk about it later --- she told me, "No Mom, we will not discuss it later."
In addition to the other advice, I think I would have a problem with her talking to you that way. I would with our own kids, anyway.
Once at school, the school nurse didn't inset the epi correctly into DS' leg and had to use a second one.
Quote from: Jessica on May 05, 2013, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: GingerPye on May 04, 2013, 06:37:55 PM
I said that she really needs to have two with her at all times but we'll talk about it later --- she told me, "No Mom, we will not discuss it later."
In addition to the other advice, I think I would have a problem with her talking to you that way. I would with our own kids, anyway.
Indeed-- but some teens are much more strongly motivated toward autonomy than others. There does come a point where you can't just say "because I said so" anymore with most of them. Some, it's earlier than others.
I can easily see my DD saying this to me at 16. She already blows us off if, in her considered opinion, something is "just not happening" no matter WHAT we've told her. I mean, she's basically a good kid-- she just makes her own mind up about things and that's that. You have to use logic/persuasion with her or she won't be compliant, no matter what she may SAY to us directly, if that makes sense. She would just blow it off and hide it to avoid the conflict with us, basically.
I think that's probably an even worse outcome, myself.
DD says I wouldn't be caught DEAD without two epipens....
er-- Oh WAIT!! ;D
Me: Well, the two things aren't mutually exclusive, anyway. :evil:
Quote from: CMdeux on May 05, 2013, 01:48:07 PM
Quote from: Jessica on May 05, 2013, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: GingerPye on May 04, 2013, 06:37:55 PM
I said that she really needs to have two with her at all times but we'll talk about it later --- she told me, "No Mom, we will not discuss it later."
In addition to the other advice, I think I would have a problem with her talking to you that way. I would with our own kids, anyway.
Indeed-- but some teens are much more strongly motivated toward autonomy than others. There does come a point where you can't just say "because I said so" anymore with most of them. Some, it's earlier than others.
I can easily see my DD saying this to me at 16. She already blows us off if, in her considered opinion, something is "just not happening" no matter WHAT we've told her. I mean, she's basically a good kid-- she just makes her own mind up about things and that's that. You have to use logic/persuasion with her or she won't be compliant, no matter what she may SAY to us directly, if that makes sense. She would just blow it off and hide it to avoid the conflict with us, basically.
I think that's probably an even worse outcome, myself.
There are two kinds of kids IMO: those who feel comfortable rebelling directly and those who hide it.
I am always happy when my daughter takes me on directly because I know there will come a day when she just doesn't bother anymore.
I just think it's disrespectful. I wouldn't talk to my own parents that way even now.
It is disrespectful, totally. I have been round and round with this kid, taken away privileges, grounded her. She is a very independent person. Some day, that will be a good thing. Right now, it makes me crazy. Believe me, I don't just let it go or accept it. Our house is more of a battlegrounds than anything else these days. ~)
She def rebels in front of me, to me, LOUDLY, and she does not hide it.
I need stories to print off and put under DD's nose.
I'd go with more officially-sourced material than that. Why? She'll argue with anecdote coming from mom as being "cherry-picked" and certainly as "but that will never happen to me"-itis, courtesy of adolescent hubris-- but not with peer-reviewed or "expert" advice.
KWIM?
(Why yes, I do happen to be familiar with this particular model of child. War zone is about right sometimes. Yikes.)
What gets me is that she has been to FAAN's teen summit twice now --- they talk about this very thing --- and obviously peer pressure and not wanting to look different is so much stronger.
I wish my DS could talk with her and tell her how lucky she's got it, being a girl. Seriously. At least with this thing there is nothing visibly different like there is for boys. Okay, we'll, I think at some point they'll probably meet, but I'm certain when they do they won't want to talk epis. :)
I see what you mean by persuasion now CM. You're not meaning cajoling.
I will look for stories.
And you should think about the Auvi-Q. DS LOVES it.
So this isn't anecdotal. When I had my Ana reaction in December to sesame I gave myself epi and within 30 minutes I needed a second dose. The hospital gave one as SOP, but I was starting to feel symptoms again.
Not sure how convincing something like this will be, but here are a few articles ...
"Use of multiple doses of epinephrine in food-induced anaphylaxis in children."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18547626 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18547626)
Quote
In this referral population of children and adolescents with multiple food allergies, 19% of food-induced anaphylactic reactions were treated with more than 1 dose of epinephrine
----------
"Multicenter Study of Repeat Epinephrine Treatments for Food-Related Anaphylaxis"
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/4/e711.full.pdf (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/4/e711.full.pdf)
Quote
Among children with food-related anaphylaxis who received epinephrine, 12% received a second dose. Results of this study support the recommendation that children at risk for food-related anaphylaxis carry 2 doses of epinephrine.
PERFECT!
I was just coming back to post some of those, and Links was already Johnny-on-the-spot. Or maybe Janey-on-the-spot. Either way, I :heart: her so, so much.
Quote from: Macabre on May 05, 2013, 01:35:56 PM
Once at school, the school nurse didn't inset the epi correctly into DS' leg and had to use a second one.
In addition - the last time I used epi, I almost pulled it out nearly instantly. It did not hurt AT ALL (this might have had something to do with the not breathing thing), but I decided to hold it in case it had worked and I didn't feel it - which is lucky, because that was the case. I usually have three with me (one in a belt loop carrier and two in my purse), but had I pulled it out, I very likely would have needed another one.
And along with that strong need for autonomy, also comes overconfidence in their ability to handle certain situations. Ask me how I know. :disappointed:
We had the one epipen convo as well. AFAIK, he's back to carrying 2, especially now that he's switched to the Auvi.
Just don't ask about his Medic-Alert bracelet. The thing that has been on his wrist continuously since the age of 3 is suddenly "uncomfortable". So he took it off to sleep. And now it's lost, and he can't seem to,find the time to order a new one. :banghead:
I've told him several times that on a college campus if someone is puking or passed out, people assume intoxication, not anaphylaxis. Gah! Just wait until he gets home...
Since my DD's recent anaphylaxis we have spoken with the allergist and later the EMT who took care of her. The EMT had never seen such a significant reaction as the epi wore off. We were at the hospital so he just saw what happened. When we talked later he said he had not seen that before and knows he would have had to epi her a second time if the ambulance ride was a bit longer.
The allergist was not surprised and right away asked if we had a second epi if needed. At all times was my answer.
DD carries 2, no question (auvi q now and she loves that they take up much less space). I always have 1. At home we have 2 more and at school there are 2 more. Always a minimum of 2.
Please tell your DD, it changes fast. My DD was doing very well with the first dose, but when it started to change and the ER meds had not kicked in yet...it was fast and scary and she even needed respiratory to come up and give her a breathing treatment along with all the other meds. So not only do you worry about a malfunction, but also time and how long it takes to be in medical care.
Just from the stance of carrying multiple EAIs it's made a huge dimensional difference being able to carry a few 'mint tins' with my 'giant magic markers'. No more hot dog shoplifter coat.
Links, thanks so much for those links!! I am printing those for DD.
Thanks also to everyone who has shared a story here.
I need to put written info under DD's nose. She doesn't believe me; and she doesn't believe anything anecdotal. She truly is at that phase where she thinks she is invincible, and that one epi will save her life should she need it. I'll be looking into the Auvi Q this summer when we visit the allergist.
just adding more thoughts: I've always had my kids carry two epis. Never ever have I said only one was okay. My kids have been self-carrying for years now. I don't know why she suddenly thinks just one epi is okay. Last night she told me that she has only been carrying one epi "forever" and had no idea that she was supposed to carry two. (yeah right) She carries one in her pencil case for school and one in her purse for everywhere else. "Why would I want to have to move epipens from one case to another all the time?"
I just about lost it.
So I guess I need to make sure she has THREE epis. She carries one at school because there are two other epis in the building. I had no idea that she was carrying only the one epi everywhere else. Yeah, Dumb Mom. Every time I asked "Do you have your epipenS?" she answered yes. I thought she had two with her.
DD and I talked about this yesterday...
there are a pair of factors at work with adolescents, and both of them are the product of peculiar brain development that occurs during adolescence.
1. They are aware of statistics-- but 100% confident (and that should be a red flag right there) on an emotional level that they will ever be one of them. This is why they take risks which are frankly CRAZY, like texting and driving... but it's only part of the reason, since
2. They also firmly believe that (and this is so irrational that it makes me laugh and shake my head every time I consider it, but I've seen WAY too many adolescents, and they ALL thought like this)-- I'll do something about it if it, you know, seems like it is going to matter.
3. They believe in their competence in ways that are not evidence supported. My 13yo fully believes, for example, that it would be "safer" for HER to drive than to ride in a car with a drunk peer behind the wheel. In spite of me repeatedly pointing out that her improved reaction time and alertness would in NO way make up for the fact that she has exactly zero road experience.
:dunce: :insane:
So this second point.
Yes, this is why they'll HOLD a bicycle helmet and think "I've got it in case I need it."
SERIOUSLY?? Oh. Okay. I'm going to use my superpowers to halt time just for a sec while I don my protective gear in preparation for being knocked off of my bicycle by that two ton vehicle.
Honestly, the only way to really get through to them on that score is to... allow something truly awful to happen to them. In real time, they tend to understand that accidents are NOT necessarily forseeable, and that they happen in an instant. This is why you wear a seatbelt ALL the time in the car.
Adults with more life experience seem to just KNOW this. Teens, not so much. It's as though they haven't really been tuned in to their surroundings and paying attention all this time or something, for the amount that their sum of life experience has taught them on this particular subject. They SHOULD know. And they do-- theoretically. DD and I had an explicit conversation about risk and teens yesterday touching upon all three points. She agrees with me that items one and two are true, and when I walked her to the natural conclusions on point two, she was sheepish and admitted that this is EXACTLY what she and her friends are thinking. "Oh, it's fine-- and if it isn't, I'll take action then."
So if you need more than one dose of epinephrine, you'll start carrying one? wish really hard while you struggle to breathe? What? I'd love to hear that explanation.
Honestly, Ginger, in your case in particular (and not unique, sadly) the mismatch in parental message is probably not helping here.
Kids who hear mixed messages about what is "necessary" with respect to epinephrine tend to dismiss BOTH extremes in favor of what suits themselves.
At least she does carry the one everywhere, yes? So in her mind, this probably IS a compromise position relative to "but I'm not going to be eating anything, so I don't need them."
I'm afraid that you may have to tackle a number of misconceptions with something like a position paper on anaphylaxis risk management.
:-[
CM, I'm not sure what you mean by the parental mismatch? The mixed messages?
Yes, she carries the one everywhere. Tells me that I should trust her on that.
We've never used an epipen before, either. For either kid. DD had anaphylaxis a few times at the hospital as a baby. She remembers none of that, of course.
Sometimes I wonder about these allergies, if they really exist anymore. I would think she would have had an anaphylactic episode at some point since babyhood.
But that's a whole 'nother thread.
But because of no memory of her experiences with anaphylaxis, it just isn't gonna happen to her, in her mind.
Just that when one parent is 'laid back' about management in a larger sense, that places you in the role of "the over-protective" one, even if you're the one actually following management recommendations issued by expert physicians.
Is there a reason why her allergist won't evaluate her again before she goes off to college? Because I think you're right, I'd be wondering as well. Maybe she has a really high threshold. Sure wish that there were an easy way to know that.
Quote from: CMdeux on May 06, 2013, 10:00:38 AM
"Oh, it's fine-- and if it isn't, I'll take action then."
Teen thinking to a T!
It is possible, is it not, that she has only been carrying one everywhere and thought that was correct because she only carries one to school - where others are available to her?
In which case - perhaps you haven't got so much a battle and a reorganization on your plate.
And, I'm sure her rather dramatic response on the telephone had more to do with being singled out and summoned away from the dinner than anything else at all. Calmer heads will prevail.
Oh, she sees the allergist this summer. But regardless, her test numbers are still very high and it's assumed she is still allergic. She has reactions on occasion, but mainly just vomiting.
I see now what you meant. Yes, one of DD's parents is very laid back. It's not me. I'm considered the overprotective/basket case parent. ~)
Right TwoDDs, that exactly it. She has berated me a couple of times for calling her at the restaurant, in front of all her friends. I told her it was because she does not answer her phone (another big battle around here --- she has a phone but turns the ringer off so she doesn't have to answer to Mom and Dad) . . . and I had to know she had an epi with her, eating at an unknown restaurant and all. I had to know. Sorry Kid, I had to know.
Quote from: GingerPye on May 06, 2013, 10:08:49 AM
Sometimes I wonder about these allergies, if they really exist anymore. I would think she would have had an anaphylactic episode at some point since babyhood.
Been there. I haven't had a reaction since before I started kindergarten. I'm 30 now. I was convinced in college that I outgrew b/c I grew up before advisory labelling and ate EVERYTHING. Bakery cookies, candy bars, etc. Turns out I must just have a very high threshold because my peanut skin test wheal was the size of a golf ball. And no, it's not because I'm lucky (having had cancer at 19, I'm well aware medically I am rarely ever lucky).
Pre-getting re-tested, I actually used to go to the cafeteria for dinner without my epis. :hiding: So I get where she's coming from emotionally. Actually, I get where she's coming from now, because two epis take up WAY too much room. In the past year, every single guy friend, AND my dad, has commented on how huge my purse is and I should get one smaller for going out. Well, no, I've been looking for ages for a nice, small, purse but these d*mn epis. Do they think I WANT my shoulder to fall off or wack everyone on the bus with it when I walk by?
It's so good to hear from you, Starlight, and about your experiences with your allergies. And I know about the purse. I carry two epis myself, just to have on hand. DD uses a Vera Bradley bag, a small one, and is able to just fit epis in there; I do know that two fit in there, as well as her inhaler, because that was what we had to make sure of before buying the bag.
Re: the call at the restaurant - If she wants to be treated like a young adult and do these things, then she better damn well act like one.
She only has to carry the two epis - I will trade her in a heartbeat. I carry 4-6 (the kids have juniors, I obviously don't), inhaler with spacer, Benadryl melts and spoons, Tums and whatever else various meds are needed. I need a purse with rollers at this point...
Here are two links to a local young man (who was friends with many of the young ladies I knew). He had a history of reactions but was always able to use his epi-pen to stop them. He died from an allergic reaction to milk when his epi pen misfired.
http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/15181906/article-KSU--Student-died-from-allergic-reaction (http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/15181906/article-KSU--Student-died-from-allergic-reaction)
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/gbi-says-student-died-from-allergic-reaction/nDrXg/ (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/gbi-says-student-died-from-allergic-reaction/nDrXg/)
QuoteThe GBI said Davis had an EpiPen for allergies and tried to use it, but the needle bent and he was not able to inject the medicine in time.
Another local death:
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/teen-dies-after-apparent-allergic-reaction-to-nuts/nQTqy/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/teen-dies-after-apparent-allergic-reaction-to-nuts/nQTqy/)
Quote
Although he had been allergic to peanuts his entire life and knew to avoid them, Diallo had eaten white chocolate Macadamia nut cookies plenty of times and never had a reaction, his mother said. He so accustomed to avoiding peanuts, Diallo no longer carried an Epi-Pen, a device containing medicine to stop an allergic reaction, according to his mom.
QuoteA stranger in the restaurant offered an Epi-Pen Jr., and Odom administered it to Diallo, but the smaller dose contained in the device was not enough to stop the reaction, his mother said. She tried CPR and chest compressions until paramedics arrived and took over.
And another local death
http://loganville.patch.com/articles/funeral-services-scheduled-for-teen-who-died-after-eating-a-cookie (http://loganville.patch.com/articles/funeral-services-scheduled-for-teen-who-died-after-eating-a-cookie)
Most deaths we hear about occur from not having the epi pen. The first story illustrates that even one is not enough sometimes.
That first story is reason enough. College student. His cafeteria had been safe--except this time. His needed a second epi.
Also--Dr. Wood's reaction that required 5. I am just taking a small work break but maybe someone can find that.
There is a horribly tragic story of a preschooler in I think New Zealand or maybe Australia where the first epi didn't work and the teacher injected the 2nd into her thumb. I started carrying 3 after reading that one. :(
CM - thanks for making me :).
GP - I'm glad you found the articles helpful.
Quote from: YouKnowWho on May 06, 2013, 03:15:20 PM
She only has to carry the two epis - I will trade her in a heartbeat. I carry 4-6 (the kids have juniors, I obviously don't), inhaler with spacer, Benadryl melts and spoons, Tums and whatever else various meds are needed. I need a purse with rollers at this point...
If you ever find the roller purse...let me know.
I had to use a hiking style waist pack for my emergency kit at summer camp. (Yes, I know that it's a fanny pack. But it is at least a nice one. 3-5 epis, depending on what I was doing for the day. Albuterol and Atrovent puffers. Battery operated neb, albuterol, atrovent, mucomyst and lidocaine for the neb. Syringes for drawing up mucomyst if necessary. Benadryl plus a med syringe full of cough syrup. Emergency allergy free snack just in case.
The thing must have weighed 10 pounds.
oof, Janelle. :-/
YKW, THANK YOU for those links. Those stories are what I need. I printed Link's info and gave to DD yesterday; I had highlighted where they told how many people needed multiple doses. She scoffed. Didn't prove anything to her. ~)
I need to scare her straight.
and yes, we continue working on respect and acting like an adult. ~) Doesn't help when Dad says (in front of DD) that she's just being a teenager. Sorry, but I know teenagers who are respectful.
You can be a teen without being disrespectful. My favorite teens were the ones who were disgusted by how others treated their parents rudely.
You can experience growing pains without being a total brat about it, kwim?
exactly. :yes: Being a teen does not mean one can be (or should be) a disrespectful little brat.
Need to add: yesterday I explained (again/more fully) to DD why I made the phone call to the restaurant
(found the epipen on the bed; tried and couldn't get hold of her on her phone; called Dad to see if he knew; finally called the restaurant even tho I didn't want to and knew it would embarrass her = Mom was in a moment of panic since DD was eating at an unknown restaurant).
She said she understood and that "it's okay, Mom."
Made some progress there. :)
FWIW, it is not so easy for all girls because girls carry purses. Some girls do not, or prefer not to do so, and are athletes and the purses do not go to the track, or the soccer field, much like McC's ds and his situation with his speech attire and no extra items. This has been a hurdle for dd. she has started to carry a small cross body vera purse simple because she must to carry her epis. I need to check now: Where is that at track practice and meets? I presume it is on the ground somewhere. I need to make sure she tells an adult and some friends where it is. She cannot wear it or carry it with tiny track shorts a sports bra and Tshirt while she runs a 100m or 200m. She has been very good with it, but I feel a sudden panic and need to know many more details. Her life has become suddenly so Independent of me. 7th grade has changed life a lot for us.
I am trying to allow dd to be more in charge of her epis and allergies than the school or even me, because I find it makes her better at remembering and doing well with it. It is better than when I would sometimes carry for her, or sometimes ask for her, etc... And I think she knows her allergies better than any teacher or school personnel at this point. My bigger concern with school is that they respond to or recognize her allergies appropriately, if she has a reaction.
Definitely, becca.
DD wears hers cross-body, as well-- and when she goes into the show ring, she sets the bag on the judges table-- or leaves it on top of the dog's crate (which is generally only a few feet away) or hands it to someone not showing in the same class with her, if neither of those works.
One nice thing about wearing them all the time (and not in a 'purse-purse' per se) is that the weight/heft of the bag is something that DD is so used to that she REALLY doesn't forget to put them back on. It feels strange to her to be without that bag on her body.
She's had questions in some events-- but generally judges/etc. are fairly understanding when she explains why she wears the bag. She has had speech judges mark her down when she forgets to take them off.
Yep, muscle memory. One thing on my to do list as the boys get older is attending a community course for extended first aid or EMT basic to get their mind prepped that it's about readiness including their allergies. The best laid plains, eh.
Guess who I caught leaving he house tonight with only one AuviQ?
I'm sure you're all really struggling with this one. :banghead:
This is the numero uno reason why we'd have LOVED to have a Twinject rx for DD.
Single device, two doses. Genius.
Just happened across this. I usually stick to off-topic. The part that stood out to me was about moving epis back and forth between her pencil case and her purse.
Yeah, get her another one, so she'll always have 2 in her purse. DS has 4. Two are in a carrier in his backpack for school. The other two are in a carrier that hangs by the door. When he goes anywhere other than school, he grabs the set by the door. No moving back and forth from the backpack to somewhere else. When he travels, he takes both sets in case one set gets lost. Sometimes the smallest inconveniences get in the way. Make it easy.
I have created a thread to discuss school-related dinners specifically, as I think it's a topic that will be very useful for middle school and high schoolers with food allergies and worthy of separate conversation. I've put it in the Teens board.
School-related Dinners (http://foodallergysupport.olicentral.com/index.php/topic,7314)
Quote from: GingerPye on May 07, 2013, 08:25:26 AM
exactly. :yes: Being a teen does not mean one can be (or should be) a disrespectful little brat.
Need to add: yesterday I explained (again/more fully) to DD why I made the phone call to the restaurant
(found the epipen on the bed; tried and couldn't get hold of her on her phone; called Dad to see if he knew; finally called the restaurant even tho I didn't want to and knew it would embarrass her = Mom was in a moment of panic since DD was eating at an unknown restaurant).
She said she understood and that "it's okay, Mom."
Made some progress there. :)
I've been away - but OMG - I so want a "like" button for this! It IS ok.